major fraud in the classic porsche business in Germany

[bob joyce]

kinda like going to a movie
a huge bomber flying over
bomb drops to ground
all you here in the audience is a pop corn fart..................

[911MRP]

While I don’t know all the ins and outs glad I put “innocent until proven guilty” in many of my comments on this thread about this evolving story given how this has all concluded.

Imagine it will be rather awkward between Barth and his former employer if they were indeed a co-plaintiff as is being reported by press. However perhaps on balance less uncomfortable than if the court had found guilty of the allegations a man who was so prominent a figure in authenticating so many important Porsche road and race cars for Porsche and its customers over so many years while he was an employee.

One shadow at least has lifted that had been looming over classic Porsche market with this outcome. I wish all the parties who were vindicated well.

Steve

[patrick911]

But hang on, is not proving something vindication?
Imo, the fact the court or prosecution can't prove the fraud, doesn't automatically mean that the 2 defendants are innocent.

[911MRP]

Innocent until proven guilty

I don’t know about the facts of this case or about legal processes in Germany but would the above principle not apply like it would if it were trial in England — in Scotland somewhat unusually there is a “not proven” verdict available in some proceedings. There is a wiki page about not proven under Celtic law for those interested in the nuance. However “not guilty” and “not proven” verdict are both an acquittal in Scotland. How does it work in that part of Germany where this trial was held that’s all that matters in this case?

I imagine if I were a high profile defendant in a case that was dismissed by judge I’d probably claim I’d been vindicated in court.
Steve

[moito]

.but very positive at least for JB- - hopefully he will get some reparation.

i deeply hope not...i`v seen several of those cars in question...just sad to see how greed destroyed those cars-(some of which at least had an original frame) but incorrect parts everywhere.they used whatever they had in the shelfes or could get for cheap...all built to maximize profit...shame on all of them involved....

[Veronica87911]

And the other 917-043 is here in Philadelphia at the Simeone Foundation Museum; Daisy (pre accident) is in the background
Daisy and the Hippie at the Simeone_S.jpg

[LongRanger]

. . . No solid evidence has been provided in the trial days so far . . .

. . . still some haggling in the courtroom about what kind of fine the defendants should be given, as there was at least suspicion of criminal offenses . . .

. . . The 77-year-old Porsche icon, multiple winner for the luxury brand and later also race director and brand ambassador, was even banned from the premises by Porsche - as a co-plaintiff in the proceedings. At least an apology is probably due . . .

Reputation --- and integrity . . . don't require (or survive?) adjudication

Being anywhere even CLOSE to a mess like this says enough for me





Icon, schmicon




............................

[preS]

I think this case is in court this week.

Richard

[rhegra]

From the Aachen Newspaper August 13th:
At the beginning the presiding judge wants to explain something. Above all, this one thing: Why is this process, in which extremely fast historic racing cars play the main role, getting off the ground so slowly? After all, they last met on June 27th, around six weeks ago.

The Code of Criminal Procedure does not actually provide for such a long break between two days of trial - unless someone becomes ill. In this case it was the defendant who was out for several weeks. And during this time, the legal deadlines that exist for the course of court hearings did not continue, as Matthias Quarch, chairman of the 1st large commercial criminal chamber at the Aachen regional court, explained.
He was able to do this because the only remaining defendant was healthy enough to appear at the Aachen Justice Center. The state of health of the 53-year-old from Aachen has played a major role several times in the criminal proceedings, which involve alleged fraud involving millions in historic racing cars. A first attempt at trial failed a few years ago shortly after the indictment was read out because the man was no longer fit to stand trial.

The background: The defendant suffers from epilepsy and the process is an enormous burden for him, causing his condition to regularly worsen. This also shaped the second process, which started in mid-February. From the beginning, out of consideration for the defendant, proceedings were only held for a few hours per day. But when the verdict was already in sight in mid-June, his condition worsened again. This time, however, it was complications that arose in connection with an operation that led to the long forced break.
The process itself, however, should no longer be threatened with any complications in terms of content. The case against two co-defendants has long since been discontinued, and a number of charges have crumbled from the once extensive indictment. The man from Aachen, who is said to have counterfeited historic Porsche racing cars and sold them all over the world for a profit, could face a comparatively mild sentence.

And the co-plaintiff, the Porsche company, also seems to be in agreement with a quick end to the trial. Most recently, various applications for evidence were submitted, which the chamber will decide on at the next meeting on August 22nd. Then, as Quarch promises, the taking of evidence could be ended.

Verdict on September 27th?

The rest of the schedule has already been set: on September 19th, the public prosecutor and the co-prosecution are scheduled to plead, on September 20th it is the defense's turn, and on September 27th Quarch wants to deliver the verdict. “It could work like that, that would be nice,” said the presiding judge on this Monday afternoon and, as a precaution, gave the defendant a few friendly wishes for his recovery. But, as his lawyer explains, he is also “very keen to complete this process.”

The fact that it now takes another month and a half to reach the verdict, even though the biggest hurdles have been overcome, has nothing to do with illness, but rather with the time of year. It's midsummer, vacation time, and judges are on vacation too. “That’s why everything is dragging on a bit now,” says Quarch.

Translation by Google

[gulf908]

the more this charade drags on,the more likely there will be a watered down verdict and sentence
this case should have been resolved months ago but for the unnecessary carry on of the German legal system
the charges and the result are of great importance to the worldwide Porsche community to clarify what can be done to our heritage cars and what is straight out fraud
lets see what resolves itself as soon as possibly
also - thanks guys for the translations from the original German

cheers
Dennis