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Thread: Ultimate ST thread

  1. #961
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Baudett
    Homologation applied to any use in FIA sanctioned motorsport anywhere in the world - ie all "official" motorsport event in all countries

    IF someone in the factory put out a letter or any other official document saying "there was an S-T in the factory, ready to be tested by potential buyers" I can see that Porsche would be very keen to ensure that document was recalled as if it never existed and a second document saying that you cannot use that term outside the factory in relation to a Porsche car would have been the lawyers response
    The document about testing should have read something like "there was a new S that can be ordered in either Gp3 or Gp4 format and there is one in the factory, ready to be tested by potential buyers"
    However in practice they were usually offered to motorsport customers most of whom would have a long association with the factory and would have heard about it well beforehand and probably placed their orders off the spec sheets

    here is a photo of a 72 car (not quite completed as it does not have any decals or trimming on it) and a 1970 one
    they usually had a decal across the rear lid saying PORSCHE but no engine designation badge on the engine grill
    Name:  1972 ST d.jpg
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Size:  176.8 KBName:  70S lightweight004.jpg
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    and while it is not a photo at the factory here is a photo of a 72ST (0041) at its first event - (1972 Monte Carlo rally) It clearly shows the lack of engine size badge and the plain decal across the rearName:  1972R_MonteCarlon42.jpg
Views: 361
Size:  82.8 KB
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  2. #962
    So... between the 911 S "m491" rennausführung version mentioned in the Porsche letter referencing VIN 230 0987 and 1195 (1972) and the 911 S-T sportausführung version of 1970, there are no "supposed differences," and the words rennausführung and sportausführung refer to the same concept and version? I thought the Sportausführung vehicle was something more "custom-ordered" and not as "standard" as m491 with a souped-up engine.
    Regarding the rear emblem, after seeing more photos, could it be said that the presence or absence of the rear plate is a distinguishing factor when discerning between a factory vehicle or not? Obviously, taking into account that the rear lid can suffer damage and changes, etc....
    Name:  911 230 0987.jpg
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    Name:  dsc00404 (1).jpg
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    What could the sticker seen in several photos on the rear window be? It could be internal identification, but I don't think so. Any ideas?
    Last edited by _gonbau; 05-28-2024 at 03:41 AM.

  3. #963
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    Baudett

    There is a world of difference between the 1970 and 1971 cars and the 1972 2.5 M491 cars in concept and execution of the "models".

    The 1970 and 1971 cars were based on a 1970 S shell that had been deliberately designed as a "stripper" shell to homologate a competition version of the 911S at the lowest possible weight. In 1970 that was the so called "standard S" with lightweight interiors and minimal creature comforts. However almost all of the 1970 911S's had an option (M470) that added back all of the creature comforts that were in the 911E (good carpets etc) to have a car with the sort of fittings that an upmarket buyer would expect. in addition a relatively small number of shells were made with lightweight panels including the roof, outer panels, some interiors panels such as across the back seats and the front bulkhead/dash area. These shells formed the basis of the competition cars and together with the stripped out features created without having the M470 option, allowed a very light weight car to be homologated (930kg)

    Added to this basic shell there was an extensive parts list of competition mechanical parts that were also homologated as well as some other body parts more suited for competition - like wider fenders / quarter panels to allow wider wheels.

    This allowed competition customers to order a car to their own specs from the extensive parts list although the versions the factory were also available to be (mostly) replicated. Mostly because the factory used some parts on some of their cars that were not available to customers. They could be built to sportausführung or rennausführung spec the latter being with the M491 option and designed for the track only.

    In 1971 instead of starting with a "base" stripped out version, the standard 911S reverted to the "lux" spec that 911S's had been prior to 1970, and instead, an option (M471) was provided to strip the interior back to what the "standard" or base interior etc as with the 1970 Model. Apart from that, the extensive parts list of homologated competition parts was available and cars could be ordered in exactly the same way as in 1970. There was also a small number of the special lightweight shells left over for use for special customers in the 1971 model year. There was still the sportausführung or rennausführung specs with the rennausführung version being spec'd as M491 and the other M471. However the designation of exactly what the car was could and did differ as they were all effectively a bespoke build. therefore you saw designations like M471 Sport/ M491 (a lightweight - M471 car with M491 (track) specs) or M471 Sport or M471-Gr.4 (complying with and only available for use in the Gp 4 categories) etc. as well as some factory rally car specs - 2.2 Rallye and 2.2 Safari.
    So in those two model years the concept was each customer could create their own car from a smorgasbord of homologated parts and theoretically no two cars need to be the same spec although the factory cars provided a good blueprint to follow, depending on what the intended use was.

    In addition in those two years ANYONE with access to the factory customer sport department could order any of those homologated parts, usually in a "kit", and build their own competition car around a "road car" that they had, or an earlier model road car that had already been modified to competition, or in the case of Kremer and a small number of favored competition clients, around a bare shell (body in white) that could be ordered directly from the factory. These cars would not have a standard vin as they were never a production car but instead had the "body number" (000xxxx for 1970 and 001xxxx for 1971 models) as their identification.

    In 1972 however there was a change in philosophy foreshadowing the following years "RS" series and building on the 911R experiment.

    The 1972 ST’s were a significant turning point in the development of 911’s for competition purposes - one that remains until current times - because, instead of allowing customers to order bespoke cars from a menu of parts, Porsche decided to do a small “production run” of 21 identical “customer” competition cars along with 4 extra cars for factory use. Unlike the experiment with the 911R’s, all of these cars were built with existing homologated options so were able to be used in both rally and track competition events. In addition, the factory continued to produce kits of competition parts so that customer teams could build their own cars to similar specifications.

    This limited production run of identical cars (suitable for both track and rally application with minor changes to setup and options) was the precursor to the production run of 55 highly successful 1973 M491 RSRs which, in a further development of production processes, were homologated by the production and sales of enough 1973 model year RS's. This marked the initial change to the process that still exists today for the creation of different limited series of customer sports purpose 911’s.

    The four 1972 2.5ST factory cars were used by the factory team and its surrogates for both track and rally events as well as being research and development cars for the 1973 RSR’s. In fact, two of the four factory-owned 1972 M491 ST’s were eventually turned into full 1973 M491 RSR’s and even renumbered as such.
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  4. #964
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    Hugh,

    Is the 1971 M471 option the same as the 1972 option?

    I only know of 2 MY72 cars with the M471 option. #0769, which was transformed into the 2.8L RSR, and Kremer #0827.

    I don't know if it was made at the factory, but I think the Kremer had a 3 piece rear bumper, with the center piece made of metal and the 2 side pieces made of fiberglass.


    Name:  WhatsApp Image 2024-03-14 à 14.10.29_83ee56f5.jpg
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    I have the impression that 0769 was equipped the same. At the time of his accident, we don't see a single remnant of the side bumper, which leads me to believe that it was also fiberglass, and not metal...


    Name:  image.jpg
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    searching gearbox 771 XXXX

    searching engine 6320659
    searching gearbox 7323639

    I'm a photographer too instagram.com/unproshot

  5. #965
    Junior Member
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    I am purchasing a restored vintage 1969 ST race car and would like to participate in this thread.

  6. #966
    Moderator Chuck Miller's Avatar
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    You are more than welcome here 69ST ....

    Cheers and can't wait for more posts !!!!...

    cm
    Chuck Miller
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  7. #967
    Waiting for your post, welcome to this great forum.
    +
    Quote Originally Posted by Leirbag View Post
    Hugh,

    Is the 1971 M471 option the same as the 1972 option?

    I only know of 2 MY72 cars with the M471 option. #0769, which was transformed into the 2.8L RSR, and Kremer #0827.

    I don't know if it was made at the factory, but I think the Kremer had a 3 piece rear bumper, with the center piece made of metal and the 2 side pieces made of fiberglass.


    Name:  WhatsApp Image 2024-03-14 à 14.10.29_83ee56f5.jpg
Views: 281
Size:  124.5 KB


    I have the impression that 0769 was equipped the same. At the time of his accident, we don't see a single remnant of the side bumper, which leads me to believe that it was also fiberglass, and not metal...


    Name:  image.jpg
Views: 275
Size:  81.0 KB
    I am not sure if what you say is correct or not, I am just here to point out that, if it is as you say, they would be in compliance with the appendices of the homologation and the Porsche letters of January 18, 1972, from Group IV, where it states that the bumpers can be made of fiber except for the rear (central) part and the front hood. They could make changes to these parts but, understanding that they left them "original" according to the VIN number of those vehicles, they could be equipped as you indicate according to my understanding.













    Quote Originally Posted by HughH View Post

    .....and these factory documents about (mainly) the 1972 ST's one of which has part numbers and another covers the "fiberglass issue" in 1972
    Attachment 527706Attachment 527707Attachment 527708Attachment 527709Attachment 527710Attachment 527711Attachment 527712
    Last edited by _gonbau; 06-06-2024 at 02:29 AM.

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by davep View Post
    So let us compare the order document to the delivery document:
    The order document does show a sales model key 911534 and the delivery document shows 9115340; so why the extra 0 at the end? That is something I have never seen before. The 911534 is consistent with a 911S as is the VIN.
    The order document does show the sale of a Porsche and the VW Porsche is crossed out.
    The order document does show Type ?1T but this is incomplete and inconsistent with the delivery of a 911S.
    The order document does show coupé where the Targa and Roadster (914) are crossed out. This is consistent with the VIN delivered.
    The order document does show 61 Gulf Orange and 12 black leatherette with cordsamt. This is consistent with the delivery document.
    The order document does show options M220 M404 M414 M473 & larger tank. The M404, M414 and M473 are not consistent with the 911S since they are standard equipment, and so are not on the delivery document.
    It would almost appear the original intent was to order a 911T with options to bring it to S trim, but somehow the model key was chosen for an S and that was delivered. No mention of engine type is on the order document.
    Davepp! Today, after quite some time thinking about this issue of the 0 next to the model, I finally had a lightbulb moment. When I first read the document, I noticed that detail but couldn't explain it... this was one or two years ago. Today, just like that, while observing the image from the other post, the answer that I believe is correct came to mind. The 0 indicates the Versandart Prefix, meaning that in that document, 0 is indicating Stock in Germany, as explained in other posts where the Versandart numbers (0...5,9) are detailed. I think this is the answer to the 0 in that place. What do you think?
    Since it is existing stock, it might be relevant to the dates mentioned by J. Barth and also to the number on the KFZ brief.
    +
    Quote Originally Posted by _gonbau View Post

    Attachment 581159

    detail in the photo of the ST .... Has the hole been made but is not "inserted the battery cut"? If this is so...at what time was this system installed?
    Attachment 581160Attachment 581161


    https://www.flickr.com/photos/182600...6/52224650401/

    very good photos of other s/ts... and the one shown above with the gas cap, etc...
    If this is a 100% factory S/T, does that mean that the factory S/Ts were later sent to the sports department to finish equipping the necessary items? It's evident that it lacks the electrical cut-off, but the hole has been made (the two small ones and one large one), so it's clear that the installation was going to be done. Would this installation not be listed on the vehicle's construction sheet, for example, or would it be listed? I understand that it would be since you can see that some metalwork has been done there. Therefore, the factory made the S/Ts but didn't fully equip them even though they were "new" and coming out of the factory... Is this correct?
    +
    I have sent some more inquiries to the archive regarding various topics, but from now on, those conversations will be more discreet. Just letting you know.












    Last edited by _gonbau; 06-06-2024 at 07:10 AM.

  9. #969
    Senior Member matteo68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HughH View Post
    Baudett

    There is a world of difference between the 1970 and 1971 cars and the 1972 2.5 M491 cars in concept and execution of the "models".

    The 1970 and 1971 cars were based on a 1970 S shell that had been deliberately designed as a "stripper" shell to homologate a competition version of the 911S at the lowest possible weight. In 1970 that was the so called "standard S" with lightweight interiors and minimal creature comforts. However almost all of the 1970 911S's had an option (M470) that added back all of the creature comforts that were in the 911E (good carpets etc) to have a car with the sort of fittings that an upmarket buyer would expect. in addition a relatively small number of shells were made with lightweight panels including the roof, outer panels, some interiors panels such as across the back seats and the front bulkhead/dash area. These shells formed the basis of the competition cars and together with the stripped out features created without having the M470 option, allowed a very light weight car to be homologated (930kg)

    Added to this basic shell there was an extensive parts list of competition mechanical parts that were also homologated as well as some other body parts more suited for competition - like wider fenders / quarter panels to allow wider wheels.

    This allowed competition customers to order a car to their own specs from the extensive parts list although the versions the factory were also available to be (mostly) replicated. Mostly because the factory used some parts on some of their cars that were not available to customers. They could be built to sportausführung or rennausführung spec the latter being with the M491 option and designed for the track only.

    In 1971 instead of starting with a "base" stripped out version, the standard 911S reverted to the "lux" spec that 911S's had been prior to 1970, and instead, an option (M471) was provided to strip the interior back to what the "standard" or base interior etc as with the 1970 Model. Apart from that, the extensive parts list of homologated competition parts was available and cars could be ordered in exactly the same way as in 1970. There was also a small number of the special lightweight shells left over for use for special customers in the 1971 model year. There was still the sportausführung or rennausführung specs with the rennausführung version being spec'd as M491 and the other M471. However the designation of exactly what the car was could and did differ as they were all effectively a bespoke build. therefore you saw designations like M471 Sport/ M491 (a lightweight - M471 car with M491 (track) specs) or M471 Sport or M471-Gr.4 (complying with and only available for use in the Gp 4 categories) etc. as well as some factory rally car specs - 2.2 Rallye and 2.2 Safari.
    So in those two model years the concept was each customer could create their own car from a smorgasbord of homologated parts and theoretically no two cars need to be the same spec although the factory cars provided a good blueprint to follow, depending on what the intended use was.

    In addition in those two years ANYONE with access to the factory customer sport department could order any of those homologated parts, usually in a "kit", and build their own competition car around a "road car" that they had, or an earlier model road car that had already been modified to competition, or in the case of Kremer and a small number of favored competition clients, around a bare shell (body in white) that could be ordered directly from the factory. These cars would not have a standard vin as they were never a production car but instead had the "body number" (000xxxx for 1970 and 001xxxx for 1971 models) as their identification.

    In 1972 however there was a change in philosophy foreshadowing the following years "RS" series and building on the 911R experiment.

    The 1972 ST’s were a significant turning point in the development of 911’s for competition purposes - one that remains until current times - because, instead of allowing customers to order bespoke cars from a menu of parts, Porsche decided to do a small “production run” of 21 identical “customer” competition cars along with 4 extra cars for factory use. Unlike the experiment with the 911R’s, all of these cars were built with existing homologated options so were able to be used in both rally and track competition events. In addition, the factory continued to produce kits of competition parts so that customer teams could build their own cars to similar specifications.

    This limited production run of identical cars (suitable for both track and rally application with minor changes to setup and options) was the precursor to the production run of 55 highly successful 1973 M491 RSRs which, in a further development of production processes, were homologated by the production and sales of enough 1973 model year RS's. This marked the initial change to the process that still exists today for the creation of different limited series of customer sports purpose 911’s.

    The four 1972 2.5ST factory cars were used by the factory team and its surrogates for both track and rally events as well as being research and development cars for the 1973 RSR’s. In fact, two of the four factory-owned 1972 M491 ST’s were eventually turned into full 1973 M491 RSR’s and even renumbered as such.
    An excellent account of the evolution of the ST and the 21 1972 M491s, Hugh! I couldn’t have said it better myself!

    Still hunting for more info on 0909 (restored by Roock Racing some years ago and may still be in Switzerland), 0983 and 1328 (aren’t we all?!)…
    ESR #4098
    ‘72 T Coupe (donor car for M491 2.5 SR)
    '72 S Coupe (2-owner tangerine unicorn)
    Looking for 915/00 gearbox #7120023

  10. #970
    I think the designation S/R is more appropriate for those 21 vehicles.
    But it's just a thought!
    *Since I haven't seen any internal document where S/R is mentioned.
    My message is incorrect if we understand the '72 ST as a vehicle homologated for both track and rally use.
    +
    What I don't understand is why homologate M491 for all the S/Ts. That implies (if I'm not mistaken) a 2.5 engine from those listed in various documents. I understood that the sports purpose manual indicates the 2.4 engine as correct (with its improvements) instead of the 662 (2.5) engine. So, if a driver wanted to request one of those S/Ts with the improved 2.4 engine instead of a 2.5, would that not be possible? Since those 21 vehicles carry M491? (I understand M491 as, in short, the "track" engine, which in the context of '72 would also be used in rally).
    When a vehicle was requested from the factory in '72 for 100% rally, was one of these M491s delivered, or was there something more specific for that type of vehicle in '72? From the text, it is understood that the ST was used in both track and rally cases, but when it was a rally driver who didn't want the 662 engine, what did they get? I suppose, if at some point an internal document mentioning S/R appears, just as the one mentioning S/T as a "base model" to be equipped later did, some things will be clarified. However, I don't know if such a document exists, especially for the year '72.
    Last edited by _gonbau; 06-08-2024 at 10:46 AM.

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