Upgrades What Is Acceptable?

[dhopkins]

Only updated chain tensioners are acceptable. Everything else should be original.

Don
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1963 356B Super
1969 911 S
1981 911 SC

[RandyWebb]

Anything that Peich, or Ferry or the old man would have done is acceptable...

[a911s]

Wow, there seems to be quite a discrepency of opinions here...

I guess it depends on whether you plan on ever selling the car. Everything else could be seen as being irrelevant, until that decision is made. So...

IMO there are two camps here, whose opinions are dependent on resale, and subsequently there two different markets: 1) the purists (I used to be one, so I understand) who say it needs to be as original as possible - this appears to be a more voracious market willing to pay for the privilege, and 2) the "hot rod" gruppe (I like these cars better myself) who are growing in number and are willing to overlook a few mods as long as they are relatively period correct and add to the performance experience of driving the vehicle.

At this time, there appear to be no hard and fast rules as to what is "acceptable" regarding mods, especially for the "hot rod" gruppe. The purist group is well established, as are their parameters, and they simply need to come to an agreement on a checklist of accepatable mods, which being much smaller should be easy to satisfy. The checklist for the "hot rod"gruppe is longer and apparently still being formulated. Those most involved in the process (wittingly aware or not), are through their actions determining what is important regarding mods and the order in which to apply them. Consequently, there is a feeling among those who spend alot of time (OK, maybe too much time) thinking about such things, as to what looks "right", feels "right", sounds "right", and IS right regarding the acceptabilty of these mods for "hot rod" 911s. This evolution has already happened in the American muscle car collector world, and it's happening to us now. It is these feelings that I find most fascinating because they require all the senses to be invoved, not just a checklist of visual confirmations necessary to provide a foundation for evaluation. It requires a community of like-minded individuals intent on finding the spirit of "Porsche" in 2005/2006. This is what keeps me interested in the topic of this thread, and I'd be disappointed if I was alone. Happy New Year!

[John Fusco]

Really lookin good there Milt!



John

[dhopkins]

Here is a list of mods going, in my humble opinion, from most acceptable to least:

1. updated chain tensioners (good)
2. Webers carbs (good)
3. increasing displacement while using the same case (good)
4. changes moving in the direction of a RS or R from an S (OK)
5. repainting the same color (OK)
6. color change, especially if you paint it brown (bad)
7. engine/tran rebuild by someone without a clue (bad)
8. using bondo to make body repairs (bad)
9. updating early car to look like 993 or 964 (very bad)
10. installing a Chevy V-8 (very, very bad)


Happy New Year!

[pwd72s]

Changing VIN tags...VERY UNACCEPTABLE to ALL groups, including law enforcement.

[RandyWebb]

I think Randy Wells put it well. I'd add the "period correct" as intermediate on the gradient he identified. And I do think it's a gradient, not a polarity. We could also add an "anything goes" racer as distinct from an Rgruppe type person.

I enjoy looking at the concours cars, but I'm far from wanting to do what they do...

[gulforange]

Now the cars are even worth more today. Again I ask what is acceptable in term of upgrades?

[Haasman]

You ask what is acceptable, but on who's terms or judgement? Upgrades in what area . .. performance, comfort, resale value?

I think these are acceptable upgrades-

1. Non-destructive upgrades (the work could easily be returned to original).

2. Work that Porsche would have done then, and still does now. I.e. pressure fed chain tensioners, gear sets, sway bars, suspension upgrades, shocks, wheels, tires. The Customer Centers today do "upgrades" according to the customer's wishes, and acceptable to Porsche's performance standards and TUV.

3. Ones that bear the test of time and have broadest adoption, are also acceptable with Porsche Club's different classes of judging. They can be very specific, strict and adhering to exactly as it left the factory door. Unaltered.


For me? I work hard at staying very close to how the car was produced, and then adding or enhancing certain components- sway bars, shocks, wheels.

Shocks: my car was built with Koni shocks. I replaced them with Bilstein struts and shocks. Why? better performance, personal preference. Would have the factory put these shocks on in production? Yes.

Wheels: I have wider rears. Why? better performance, personal preference. Would have the factory put these on in production? No, but the car would have been taken to special wishes department to have them installed. This department did and does changes to customer's cars.

Engine: A lot of engines have been "changed" over the years. Is a car with an larger than the standard engine a detriment? That would depend on the change. If the original motor case is retained (matching numbers) with the engine that has performance upgrades, that is best. I.e. increasing engine liters, say from a 2.0 to 2.2 I feel it is very acceptable upgrade and will not hurt the value of that car. Unless there is a consideration for originality.

Unaltered, original cars are the ones most often that are worth the most.

Whether it is a barn find or in a collection, an exactly original car is fascinating. They are time capsules of how these cars were 45-50 years ago.

It is very rare to find one of these cars that hasn't been "worked on". Over that period of time a lot of people working on one car has its impact. No matter how well intentioned, more times than not these cars witness work having been done on them.

If repairs and service have been performed according to factory standards and practices then no concerns. If a vehicle was maintained by other repair centers, that could have an potential impact to the value of the car.

[Richardnew]

The NCRS/Bloomington Gold comment was appropriate. Neither organization encourages perfection. Both encourage originality. I've seen cars get massive deduction for paint that was too good.

The NCRS also operates with a huge data base. They know what was original. They've done their homework.

Porsche Club of America has a much looser set of guidelines. "It it's close it's ok." The car that was judged to be the best 911 survivor a few years back had a new front pan and had also been repainted. That would not happen at a Corvette or Ferrari judging session. Each marque seems to have developed their own criteria as to what is original. That's fine. It's probably the way it should be.

Most of cars here are pretty basic. The Germans made a lot of them. Some though enter the category of "significant". What I do to my 1973 911 really doesn't matter. What someone does to a LeMans winner does matter. There are no easy answers.

As I've worked with museums over the years I've come up with some definitions that seem to help.

Preservation: The essence of preservation is stabilization. Preservation is an effort to decrease the rate of deterioration. It involves maintaining the condition of the car.

Conservation: Conservation is an intervention to protect what’s there. Conservation is an attempt to manage, or at least reduce, the effects of decay that takes place on a daily basis. This is very similar to preservation except that conservation involves some type of active intervention.

Restoration: A restoration is an intervention that permanently changes the car. It’s an attempt to return the car to some previous state. In some cases this may be a state that never actually existed. When you replace significant parts, whether original to the period or not, you’re altering the historical integrity of the artifact, or car. The original manufacturer’s work is no longer intact and the research value of the artifact, or car, has been reduced.

If you decide to permanently change the car there is no going back. That's why you need to give a lot of thought to whether a restoration is appropriate. A restoration is not a bad thing. It's just a big deal thing.

On the other hand it probably doesn't matter what most of us do to our cars. There are any number of perfect 1973 911s out there so no matter what I do to my car there will always be some historically correct cars in existence.

I actually like the FIA approach to race cars. They've given up on trying to determine what's original. They look at cars to see if they're period correct. And, they have the necessary data base to do this.

Richard Newton