1972 Tour de corsa RSR photos and info

[HughH]

Hugh,


A further theory: Perhaps R1/0019 was never built? If you look in the chassis register for RS 2.7s, there is precious little information on it, likewise 0020. Furthermore, why should the factory bother to make two prototype RS/RSRs, R1 and R2, when they already had Zasada's old crashed rally car, 911 230 0769, to make into 911 360 0001, and homologate as the Group 4 RSR? We know that this happened.


Your thoughts would be appreciated!

On the balance of probabilities I think there were 4 cars that have been confused in the literature, and possibly at the factory records.(maybe deliberately ) I think both 001 and 002 are separate from R1 and R2 but have been confused over time. 001 and 002 are almost certainly 1972 ST's converted / upgraded to the latest spec but not counted for homologation purposes.

I think R1 and R2 were in the RS homologation process - ie (maybe re-manufactured )/ produced as RSH cars, sent to the weigh bridge and counted, and then used in the group 4 and group 5 development process. They would also have been earmarked as a part of the factory race effort , although it seems as if R1 never made it onto the team.

It is relatively certain that R2 (020) is the car in the factory museum. Contemporary photos of cars supposed to be it suggest it may be on a 72 shell - not surprising as cars 011 to 018 probably all were - on some contemporary pictures of these early build cars there is an oil door showing on others there is not (someone airbrushed them out??).

I don't believe I have ever seen a photo of a car I can identify as R1 and I have also wondered if it ever existed.

I also wonder IF it could be the other Tour De Course car - ie if both the LEO-ZA cars were R1 and R2. It is interesting that BOTH of these cars have black horn grills, light surrounds and other 1973 features, unlike the pictures of remodeled ST's.

That would not be inconsistent with one of the cars being originally an ex 2.5 ST - indeed they both may be! ........but different ones to cars 001 and 002 and remade from the ground up on the production line.

On the other hand 001 had to be rebuilt after Zasada crashed it so why waste an opportunity to upgrade its spec to the latest, even if it was not homologated. I suppose there is a slight possibility that "official record" of R1 was the Zasada car being remade after the big accident.(and then counted to get the numbers up) . But if it was, why would it have a real chassis number 001 stamped into it rather than 019.

The Strahle car (002 probably) on the other hand was a very early test bed M491 car in a project running parallel to the series production RS project (when it was still the 911S2.7 project). According to the RS book it was conceived and developed in the 3 months leading up to July 1972 after Fuhrmann has seen the group 4 Fords and BMW's run away from the Porsches.

How IT gets to be 002 when the rebuilt Zasada car gets to be 001 is beyond me. However I think it has very distinctive rear flares and is probably the 107 car in the race at the targa in 1973.

It may have ended up as the 1978 safari Recce car because 001 certainly was not that car, given it was in the UK 4 years earlier. given a number of "old" race cars got left in the countries they went to later in life. IF it went to Africa in 1978 it probably stayed there. R1 is the other possible candidate for this fate.

[Jim Calzia]

On Sept 5, I received this e-mail from varunan123
Zasada rallye car 911 230 0769-ran the europa rallye-unknown result,ran bulgaria rallye-number 1 came in first.Did polish rallye crashed sent back to the factory.Don't know if it is one of the leo-za cars that ran in the tour de corse.

Yes, I am familiar with 9112300769 (renumbered 9113600001 when rebuilt as Carrera RSL prototype); Starkey and I swapped contributions re: this car on the Targa Florio thread in Feb and March, 2007, and I have a copy of the car's Documented History by Steve Carr. From Norbert Singer's notes, 0001 did not race at the '72 Tour de Corse; it may, however, have been one of two practice cars used by Waldegaard and Larrousse for 10 days prior to that event. Unfortunately, Singer did not record the VINs of those practice cars. There is a picture of Singer standing next to a 911 with very large rear flares in his book 24:16, but I have no reason to believe that car is 0001; in fact, Barth notes in the Doc History that 0001 was not taken over by the Press and Sports Division until Dec 20, more than a month after the TdC. As I wrote in my 3-27-07 post on the TF thread, I thought 0001 was used by the Factory to test fit various body parts, engines, whatever, to various cars throughout the '73 WCM season; there is nothing in Singer's notes that record its use during that season.

Good luck and keep those posts coming on the TdC and TF threads; they are FASCINATING!

[HughH]

These are 2 pictures from Singers book in relation to the "Rallye Corsica" , as he states it.

John Starkey referred to them in another thread on the Targa cars

They show 2 cars with red / orange bodies and white bonnet and roof. One is clearly shown as S AK 1337. The other does not show up well on the scan but I can read S AK 13 on the original with the rest blocked. The one in the foreground has twin pipes like an RSR and no bumper horns and silver trim on the lights.

These look like the practice cars that Larousse and Waldegard used for the rally and they look like the same cars that they used at Monte Carlo earlier in the year but with red ducktails on instead of the white standard engine lid shown in the photo above.

Assuming the license plates were not being transferred from car to car, one of the cars went on to do the rally Cervannes with Larousse, entered by Meznarie, a month or so after this photo and other events for those two. 1336 seems to be still alive and well today, or at least a car with those plates looking like the 1972 Monte car is.

The caption for these photos in Singers book seems to be wrong.

It states "The Rallye Corsica was the last such event for the 911 Carrera, this car being taken straight to the Paul Ricard track to be transformed for circuit racing."

All the evidence points to one of the LEO-ZA RACE cars being the one to go to Paul Ricard - not a practice car.

However IS it possible that ST S-AK-1337 (the Waldegard car at the Monte) was the car that was the ST that became the Waldegard car for the rally LEO-ZA-68? with the other car going to Meznarie ?

In that case it was a 1972 ST that was transformed........but which one?

I have also attached a pic of 1336 at a reecnt rally in europe for comparison

[HughH]

resurrecting an old thread on the tour de corse RS's and the development of the RSR for the track

here are two photos I stumbled across on another site of R2 at the Paul Ricard test track immediately after the TdC event.

these are much earlier than i have ever seen before as they still have the red and white on the doors as seen at the TdC, unlike the plain white doors that are in the other photos, and still have much of the signage from the TdC but not the lights etc.

the first one seems to still be in narrow body form (albeit hacked about a bit) while the second one has the wide flares that were crafted at the circuit to suit wider wheels etc needed to turn the rally car into a track car.

the final photo is at a later stage in testing with the white doors that are familiar from other photos of those tests

[letsrollbabe]

Hugh:

These are very interesting photos...and add to the data base for this early period in the development of the 73 RSRs. Some observations: the flares in the last shot seem wider than the factory used on the final version of the RSRs. Why were the doors now white (probably changed out)...maybe they had been converted to aluminum and were simply painted white. It is also interesting that the driver's mirror was turned inward and unusable (but offering lower drag) for the tests...since no competing cars to worry about. And boy, look at the size of those rear tires....they were obviously using 11x15 Fuchs by November, 72.

The early prototype efforts by the factory are still a very fascinating subject for me.

[HughH]

Raj

I found some great historical TdC photos (and many others that I have not looked at yet) in that link you posted to raceline

Here are some fantastic photos of R1 and R2 at the TdC from that site

they show both cars before they got their numbers etc
R2 coming off the boat before the rally
R1 (waldegaard) in the event and
both cars parked (you have to look hard to see car 6 on the right of the photo) with one of the 1973 Monte carlo ST's that was used as a recce car at the TdC - probably 911 230 0047 - S AK 1337; the car used in the homologation photos for the group4 RSR's

[KS Carrera]

Resurrecting a very old thread, I have these three photos in my archive... Sorry for watermarking them, but I hope you'll understand.

Are they of interest? Taken at same days as Mark Donohue was testing the 'variable wheelbase' 917/10, December 1972.

[peekaboo]

Resurrecting a very old thread, I have these three photos in my archive... Sorry for watermarking them, but I hope you'll understand.

Are they of interest? Taken at same days as Mark Donohue was testing the 'variable wheelbase' 917/10, December 1972.

(After raj's , ST? , was mentioned - I looked over at the Targa Florio thread that I had not looked at in a long while . And noticed this photo below) .

So where was the photo above - Paul Ricard Test Track ?

And so , does anyone think that these are the same car ?

It seems very similar to me, with the exception of a drivers door mirror added at Le Mans 4 Hrs. . Some padding around the Roll loop . And of course differant paint. Notice the same seamed rear flairs (look back at the other 2 photos of the test session in the previous post , to see the flairs there better).

In two of those the test session photo's, air foil plates are attached to the ducktail. In the one I brought to this post , they do not seem to be present.

Maybe this is a known fact that it's the same car ? I just thought i'd point out the similarities , in case they hadn't been noticed. Or it's not known of these 2 cars possibly being the same.


(Jan. 4th , 1973 : Le Mans 4 hr. Test , Manfred Shurti - Helmuth Koinigg / 4th overall) :

[KS Carrera]

Amended post in view of Raj's comment below!

And, yes, the photos I posted were all taken at the Paul Ricard circuit in December 1972

[peekaboo]

I read the 4 hour test dates wrong , not realising the euro type date .


April , not Jan.