Ultimate ST thread

[Chuck Miller]

Hey Scott,

I happened to be at Laguna Seca on a foggy, dreary Tuesday before Thanksgiving about 10 years ago for a Morspeed 'excerice day' ....... It wasn't this day with the ST you posted, but still I just couldn't believe my eyes... and good fortune....

I think I still have the photographs somewhere....

Cheers

[letsrollbabe]

Another interesting fact with that Ginther ST as restored is that the engine, done by Jerry Woods has a red S engine cover (not natural FG) and although it was twin plug, it did not have high butterfly induction as most ST factoriy engines had. In the Anderson article, it was stated that Harold Broughton was in charge of 'tweaking' the Ginther team engines, and this ST engine was built for a redline of 8400 rpm which produced 185 mph at Ontario Speedway, before being shipped by to France for the 71 LeMans. The car qualified first in Group 4 GT, and was the fastest of 20 911s entered. It achieved 185 mph on the Mulsanne Straight.

What I have always wondered is whether the original engine had HB or was it as shown in 98 standard mag induction stacks, obviously bored out for larger head ports. The results at LeMans would indicate a very strong engine, and the question is was it achieved with HBs or the more standard mag stacks?

Is this engine still in the car? I know it has been restored again with the blue stripes on the sides, but was the engine redone with HB?

[Chuck Miller]

Damn,

Of all the pics I took of it at Rennsport... none of the engine........

[Longballa]

Hey Scott,

I happened to be at Laguna Seca on a foggy, dreary Tuesday before Thanksgiving about 10 years ago for a Morspeed 'excerice day' ....... It wasn't this day with the ST you posted, but still I just couldn't believe my eyes... and good fortune....

I think I still have the photographs somewhere....

Cheers

I have quite a few photos from the day I was there with all the cars 959,936,934,ST 917's. Maybe we should start another thread with your and my photos from those events. Bruce Canepa had some of his cars there also. I remember he had a 917there also. Are you sure we weren't there on the same day? I'll never forget it. It was amazing!

[Harvey Weidman]

Is this engine still in the car? I know it has been restored again with the blue stripes on the sides, but was the engine redone with HB?


Gib,
When the car was re-restored for RR III the engine was the same as I remember. At least the starting procedure was the same. I doubt if it was the original engine though...As the story goes, the original broke a rod overreving on the Mulsanne straight after Porsche wouldn't suppily taller gears. The reason given is the car couldn't possibly be fast enough to redline the gears they had. They said it broke at 189 mph...as the story goes anyway...
H

[Harvey Weidman]

[QUOTE=varunan123;489625]If this car is a "ST",every race prepared 914 by ginther should be a 914/6GT.I think that's ok , everycar that was then race prepped and raced(in the spirit of the "ST" here or in the european GT series should be then a "ST".That would allow us to have alot more "ST"s than previously realized that is not such a bad thing.This is a more inclusive definition-any 911S race prepped with "ST" parts or in the "ST" spirit ( factory or not) is a 911 "ST" -as long as it was competitively raced and looked the part.

Raj,
The Ginther car is a real ST.
This car wasn't built by Ginther it was PREPARED by Ginther. The car was built at Porsche and it was sent to California then completely taken apart and rebuilt by Ginther. The engine was radically modified. The suspension bushings,etc were changed to improve handling. It was the first American 911 entry at LeMans. The fact that it was so much faster than the Porsche entries is what is noteable.
H

[letsrollbabe]

Harvey/Raj:

I find both your comments very interesting since it gets at the heart of why I wanted to post pictures of the Ginther engine and review the history of this significant car. Harvey's points suggest and history shows that the Ginther team, including Harold Broughton, knew tuning secrets based on experience racing the 911 that proved to be superior to the factory set up for STs in the day. This is documented by the fact that Ginther's ST posted the fastest time in Group 4 GT (all marques) as well as the fastest of all 20 entered factory 911 ST and privateer 911s.

Aside from the historic race details for me is the issue of whether the engine had a HB induction system originally, and if it did, why was it not restored in that form for the first 911 to be raced at the Monterey Historics in 98? The second question is could the stock magnesium stacks (obviously modified) have provided the superior performance displayed at LeMans in 71?

And Raj, your comment that maybe we should consider 'every race car' prepared and raced with ST type mods an ST, registers true for me. These were days when the factory was not directly funding a track race effort for 911s, and the success of these cars on the world's tracks depended on independent teams whether big or small. Why would documented competitively raced 911s from this period built as modified cars with ST parts from the factory be excluded from recognition as being an ST? Since there is so little factory documentation regarding the ST cars, and almost no records available showing parts ordered and installed in cars by the many the teams competing, maybe the best we have are historic records, pictures from events, log books, and any paperwork kept by race teams supporting their efforts in the day.

I would agree that the market place will reward a highly documented factory ST over a less documented privateer car, and that is how the market works on collectability. But it doesn't mean those privateers are not significant, and deserve their place in history for their efforts, for they pursued the same goals with the same passion. And we should include any and all those 'ST looking' 911s shown in Curt Egerer's thread or others in this thread where it can show some degree of historical record of being there in competition with a 911 with ST features.

[Harvey Weidman]

No I haven't see the COA or the cardex. I remember the car from when the blue graphics went on, before Yates bought it from Ginther. It was the only ST that I personally saw in SoCal. Still, if I was buying it I would check it out further. I'll try to get some verifyable info.
H

[jeff eelkema]

Not only is it amazing that a 911S came in 10th but a 911T came in 11th and 13th, truly amazing!

I'm sure I read some of Raj's previous posts about what was the starting point for some race cars but if these are the actual results, someone must have started with a T and not an S?

[Chuck Miller]

Those are GREAT stats Raj....... never saw times before.

In the Pascal book "Porsche at Le Mans" it states that no less then 18 911s made to the track in '71. Interestingly it also states only 3 out of the 18 were injected and all the rest were Weber carbureted.... including the the Ginther #34

........ this might answer the induction question... or at lest start another one...........