Fakes?

[alarson11]

In my case, there was a counterfeit car created that had its VIN altered to match my original car's VIN. I believe the current owner was sold on the provenance and believed the car to be the original. He thought he did his homework, as the paperwork included a modern letter from the original owner that had the car in 1975. However, what the new owner did not know is that this "original" owner had written a dozen letters (approximately) on authenticating counterfeit cars, where the real one might have been in the US in a collection out of sight, and then they would introduce a counterfeit car in Europe. Also, this counterfeit car raced at the Le Mans Classic for a couple of years, so this modern provenance only added to the illusion that this counterfeit car might be the real car. You can say that this current owner was "probably" duped by not doing enough research. So, although duped into believing he has the real car, the issue is that he continues to "represent" that he has the real car in Europe./

So, it is up to the owner of the counterfeit car to prove his car is the real thing, when he sells it. However, his counterfeit has the correct VIN number stamped in it (although not well done), and he will (steal) the documented racing provenance from the real car. The two pieces of "paper" he has to authenticate the counterfeit is the "original owners modern letter" and also the original Wagenpass (logbook)(which the original owner kept whenever he sold an authentic car to someone else). So, the next owner of this counterfeit may be easily duped into believing they are purchasing the authentic car.

Although it is not necessarily my battle, having this counterfeit out there and known, especially given the Le Mans Classic entries, can affect the value and desirability of my car, if a potential buyer is concerned about a known (counterfeit) car that is also out there, being represented as the original. This counterfeit car can also shed doubt with a potential buyer of my car (although my car is not for sale), as they may not be 100% sure as to which is the real car, as they can inspect the car in front of them, but may not have the opportunity to inspect the other car (that is represented as real).

As a result, what strategies (including doing nothing) do you suggest that I should consider, in order to help the world understand which is the counterfeit car and which is the real car? And what legal remedies might I have, when the counterfeit car resides in Germany and I live in the US?

I am happy to share what I have done so far, but I would like to hear your ideas first. Thanks in advance!

[Frank Beck]

In my case, there was a counterfeit car created that had its VIN altered to match my original car's VIN. I believe the current owner was sold on the provenance and believed the car to be the original. He thought he did his homework, as the paperwork included a modern letter from the original owner that had the car in 1975. However, what the new owner did not know is that this "original" owner had written a dozen letters (approximately) on authenticating counterfeit cars, where the real one might have been in the US in a collection out of sight, and then they would introduce a counterfeit car in Europe. Also, this counterfeit car raced at the Le Mans Classic for a couple of years, so this modern provenance only added to the illusion that this counterfeit car might be the real car. You can say that this current owner was "probably" duped by not doing enough research. So, although duped into believing he has the real car, the issue is that he continues to "represent" that he has the real car in Europe./

So, it is up to the owner of the counterfeit car to prove his car is the real thing, when he sells it. However, his counterfeit has the correct VIN number stamped in it (although not well done), and he will (steal) the documented racing provenance from the real car. The two pieces of "paper" he has to authenticate the counterfeit is the "original owners modern letter" and also the original Wagenpass (logbook)(which the original owner kept whenever he sold an authentic car to someone else). So, the next owner of this counterfeit may be easily duped into believing they are purchasing the authentic car.

Although it is not necessarily my battle, having this counterfeit out there and known, especially given the Le Mans Classic entries, can affect the value and desirability of my car, if a potential buyer is concerned about a known (counterfeit) car that is also out there, being represented as the original. This counterfeit car can also shed doubt with a potential buyer of my car (although my car is not for sale), as they may not be 100% sure as to which is the real car, as they can inspect the car in front of them, but may not have the opportunity to inspect the other car (that is represented as real).

As a result, what strategies (including doing nothing) do you suggest that I should consider, in order to help the world understand which is the counterfeit car and which is the real car? And what legal remedies might I have, when the counterfeit car resides in Germany and I live in the US?

I am happy to share what I have done so far, but I would like to hear your ideas first. Thanks in advance!

Finally Richard.

Goes to show if you cough up enough hairballs, sooner or later something of significance will come out.

Alarson11,
This really deserves its own thread.

Reaching for the popcorn now.

[Darren65]

I am happy to share what I have done so far, but I would like to hear your ideas first. Thanks in advance!

With a car building its own provenance in Europe I'd think it would certainly cast doubt in the future as to which is the real car........I'd be inclined to post details of your car, ownership, images etc, obviously not any sensitive supporting documentation that could be copied or indeed the production number and thereafter post details of where the car hasn't been i.e. 'my car is not located in Europe and it did not race at CLM in 2012' etc. - rather than telling the world the other car is a fake you'd simply be stating facts about your car. Nobody could take any issue or action about that and at least the world would know.

I'd also try to put pressure on event organizers and warn them not to claim your car is attending when it's not. That's likely to have more affect than any action against an individual.

As Frank said, definitely needs it's own thread.

Good luck.

[boba]

I agree with Darren that in this situation sunlight is the best antiseptic. This depends on your willingness to make your car known.

[Richardnew]

Wow This is a tough one. I have two scenarios here. Neither is a good one.

I owned a fully documented F3 Brabham. It was raced in Europe by an Australian. I sold it. About 5 years, and at least 3 owners later, I encountered the car at a vintage race. It was now an F2 car with a fully documented (and totally fraudulent) history. I spoke to the crew chief and he agreed with me that the car was a total fake. He suggested that I not inform the owner because he had once tried to explain what was going on and almost lost his job.

I walked away. I made the decision that none of what had happened was my business.

Now - 2nd case. A friend had a Jaguar XKSS. There was another car (a replica) with the exact same serial #. The controversy as to which was the real one went on for at least a decade. One day the owner of the replica put his car up for sale. My friend bought it and had it crushed. As he said "that solved the problem for good."

Neither one may be the answer you are looking for but there are choices. None of which are good.

Richard Newton

[alarson11]

I am happy to make a new thread on this "Counterfeit" topic. However, is there any way to transfer the responses that have come in relating to this?

[70tangerine]

Wow This is a tough one. I have two scenarios here. Neither is a good one.

I owned a fully documented F3 Brabham. It was raced in Europe by an Australian. I sold it. About 5 years, and at least 3 owners later, I encountered the car at a vintage race. It was now an F2 car with a fully documented (and totally fraudulent) history. I spoke to the crew chief and he agreed with me that the car was a total fake. He suggested that I not inform the owner because he had once tried to explain what was going on and almost lost his job.

I walked away. I made the decision that none of what had happened was my business.

Now - 2nd case. A friend had a Jaguar XKSS. There was another car (a replica) with the exact same serial #. The controversy as to which was the real one went on for at least a decade. One day the owner of the replica put his car up for sale. My friend bought it and had it crushed. As he said "that solved the problem for good."

Neither one may be the answer you are looking for but there are choices. None of which are good.

Richard Newton

I guess finances werent really a concern of his....

[70tangerine]

I am happy to make a new thread on this "Counterfeit" topic. However, is there any way to transfer the responses that have come in relating to this?

you could always jut add this link...no biggie

[Richardnew]

This works for me. I have no problem with continuing this discussion here.

While on this topic ... A few years back I was working on an article about the FIA and historic racing. At one time the FIA would actually certify that your car was the real deal. They issued a document called the FIA Heritage Certificate. This Heritage Certificate was intended to provide documentation that this was the only known chassis with this identity and there was an unbroken chain of ownership from the past to the present. It was all about the provenance of the car.

Shortly after Jean Todt became President, the FIA stopped issuing these certificates. When they went out and actually checked on these cars it turned out that about half of them were total fakes. Jean Todt made the decision to get totally out of the certification business.

Today the issue something called the FIA Historical Technical Passport (HTP). It's a carryover from the old homologation documents that any racecar competing in international racing was obliged to have. These homologation papers demonstrate that the FIA authorities had certified this particular car as belonging to some specific class when the car was current.


This HTP was introduced in 2004. It describes in words and pictures the physical specifications and dimensions of a given car for the purpose of international historic motor sport events that are run under the auspices of Appendix K.

The HTP in now way certifies the historic record of the car in question. It simply say this car was modified using the criteria that were used back in the appropriate time period. The car could have been built last week for all the FIA cares. There could also be three cars with this serial number. The FIA could care less.

Richard

[alarson11]

Good idea. I'll start a new thread in the "Other Porsche Passions" Forum under the title "Counterfeit car in Europe with same VIN. What should I do?". Please continue this part of the thread there. Thanks!