Ultimate ST thread

[HughH]

Regarding the white car with the rallye lights etc. Dr K in the new RS book (page 43) has that one tagged as 911 230 1144. On the Pbase site it is shown as #1019 as you state. I am not sure which is correct BUT it certainly does look like one of the two cars shown on the original documents went to Spain not Sweden. I had not made the connection to that Zoll plate number 857 Z 4481. I have that shown as Julio Gargallo & Jaime Ramón. and the photo you posted as the 1972 rallye Bosch. It is also shown as a 2.5ST.
Here are some other photos of it.



regarding the Kuberol car(s) the records I have show them with 2 cars at almost every main event. One is entered as a T and the other an S in the same number groupings as the 2.5M491 cars. It is possible that one was a real one and the T was a car made from a factory kit, or indeed that both were factory kit cars. However I suspect one was a real one given the distinctive front spoiler shape that only seems to be on these cars - at least in 1972.
That was a great pickup on the roll bar. I will have to go through my photos and entry lists to see if i can match one consistently to the roll bar or if both the cars entered as a T or an S had it.

On the photos shown the back side of the car was at Estoril but no race number is shown so the car cant be identified- at least by me (the other car is Horst Klauke's 911T entered in GT2.0) Kubero had the T (GT2.0) with Simonsen as car 83 and Ekberg in the S as car 65 (GT+2.0) in that event.
The next car I am not sure if it is car 82 or 52 so i will have to check, but as it is a willi weber photo it is likely to be Nurburgring and it looks like it may be #82 at the Nurburgring 1000Kms in May where car #82 was entered as a T for Ekberg / Biström / Simonsen.
The#8 car was at the Nurburgring as round 5 of the EC GT on 29 July 1972. Car #8 was Larsson in the S in GT+2.0 and the other Kuberol car was #26 for Simonsen in the T.
Finally 123 was 1n April 1973 at the Nurburgring 300 It was Simonsen now in the S in GT3.0 class which is likley to be the same S as in 1972.

[HughH]

Hi Wolf
I looked through the records for Kuberol racing in 1972.
They ran at least 2 cars. the main cars were a 911S that appears to be a M491 one but it is not certain if it is one of the factory built cars or a "kit car" but it was running a 2492 engine. The other car was a 911T and was a 2 litre car entered in the 2 litre class and running in some of the 2 litre championship races. As far as I can see between them they entered or ran in at least 19 events that year.

the S was:
car #48 100kms Monza 25 April. but DNQ
probably the Ekberg car on 7 May for round 1 of the Swedish sports car championship at Anderstorp. no car # recorded
car #71 and #73 on 28 may for the Nurburgring 1000kms - both DNQ
probably car #1 for Ekberg on 4 June for round 2 of the Swedish sports car championship at Mantorp Park
car#24 for Larsson 18 June Round 3 EC GT at Zandvoort
car #32 25 June Zeltweg 1000kms
car #?? 2 July at Round 4 EC GT at Nivelles (2 cars but no car numbers shown as S's entered - I think one may be the T)
probably car #1 for Ekberg on 16 July for round 3 of the Swedish sports car championship at Falkenberg
car #8 for Larsson on 29 July Round 5 EC GT at Nurburgring
probably car #30 for Ekberg on 20 August for round 4 of the Swedish sports car championship at Kinnekulle
car #16 for Ekberg on 27 August for Round 6 EC GT at Hockenheim
car #70 for Simonsen on 3 September at Nurburgring DRM ADAC 500
car #23 for Ekberg on 10 September at Monza EC GT round 7
Probably 17 September for round 5 of the Swedish sports car championship at Knutstorp - but both Ekberg and Simonsen shown in S's there neither have a number shown
car #65 for Ekberg on 12 November at Estoril for Round 9 EC GT

then in 1973 (31 March) car 123 at DARM nurburgring 300 for Simonsen

In all of the photos that I can see clearly there IS that diagonal part of the roll cage behind the Driver as shown clearly on this shot from the 1973 Nurburgring


it can also be seen in the second of the two team cars behind the Lotus at Zanvoort below.



for completeness here are the records I found as the car recorded as a T that year and in the lower class
EC GT round 1 ADAC 300km 3 April 1972 car 143 Larsson
car #62 100kms Monza 25 April. but DNQ
car #82 and #84 (DNQ) on 28 May for the Nurburgring 1000kms the #82 is the one you posted the picture of and it does not have the cross brace
car#15 for Simonsen 18 June Round 3 EC GT at Zandvoort
car #26 for Simonsen on 29 July Round 5 EC GT at Nurburgring
car #81 for Larsson on 3 September at Nurburgring 500kms
car #?? for Simonsen on 10 September at Monza EC GT round 7
car #41 for Ekberg on 8 October Barcelona 400kms (2 litre championships)
car #?? Ekberg on 5 November at Jarama 2 hours (2 litre championships)
car #83 for Simonsen on 12 November at Estoril for Round 9 EC GT

However It is interesting to me that one of the main features I have been looking for in Identiifying the "customer M491 cars" - the rectangular cutouts on the front spoiler are evident on both cars run by Kuberol in 1973

My best guess is that they had one real car, number still to be determined but maybe this list will lead to something, and they used some of the spares like the front spoiler on the other car as well

maybe of the two shown as Sweden on the original list (1019 and 1144) one went to Spain and the other went to Kuberol. If Dr K is correct in the RS book that would make the Kuberol one 911 230 1019 ??

here is one final one of the S at Estoril (car #65) following the Kremer of Fitzpatrick (definitely NOT a customer M491 car)

[tomlin]

Hugh,

Here is a link to a generic "race car" thread on the Swedish Early 911 forum. Maybe there are something of interest in there.

http://www.early911.se/forum/viewtop...2111&start=425

[HughH]

thanks ........ i found some shots of the races in Sweden with The S in them

[wgm]

The "ref-pic" as to the rollbar shows #0872. Please have a look to the various sponsorship decals, i.e. "R.Sontonax"

[wgm]

Sorry, I missed the 2nd Kuberol-911, since I thought, the "2.5", from which you had attached two pics, wouldn't fit anyway in the 2.5(SR)/ M491-line, at least imho.
There are too many differences:
- most of the 2.5/M491 had the new small & rectangular rear mirror(driver's door)
- all had the new inner rear mirror, glued directly to the windscreen (see pic att.)
- rollbar strut on the RHD
- battery cut off switch nearby the windscreen LHD
- missing horn grilles LHD & RHD
- most had the Porsche sripts/ decals above the sills LHD &RHD, unless complete sponsorship-paintjobs
Of course these things were easily changeable and some race issues could have forced the teams to modify their cars, but the Kuberol-911 looks more like e.g. 911 230 0444 to me, 911s, which were quickly upgraded to the latest '72- specs by some teams(as the Kremer 0444).





and for comparison reasons #911 230 0444:
- inner rear view mirror
- rollbar strut LHD

[wgm]

Regarding to 1144(or 1019) I had posted this pic, Gargallo/ Ramon at the Rallye Bosch '72, which still showed the car in a more original configuration, than afterwards:
- still with its small & rectangular rear mirror(driver's door)
- Porsche sript/ decal above the sill RHD
- other points, as already stated
I would agree with your assumption that Gargallo's 911 could be one of the above mentioned VINs, either 1144 or 1019.

[HughH]

Wolf

that is excellent work. I had not even considered that the car at Estoril may have been 0872 - I should have made the connection with the decals but didnt
on the detail differences that is also great work and aa great list to work from

from looking at this I think you are correct that the Kuberol car may be a "kit car " like the Kremer and others.
i will study this today using the things you have posted and see if it throws anything else up. the internal mirror is a great pick up

it shows that the "power of the crowd" can really help in these things

[HughH]

OK thanks to Wolf's work I think it is clear that the Kuberol car (the S) was NOT a customer M491 car from this list but likely to be a kit car built up on car made earlier than the 72MY.

Based on the same reasoning I think that THIS one below for Gunter Schulte for Hulpert racing team at the Norisring is may also be a "kit car" and not a customer M491 car.


However this one below from the same race is almost certain to be the Krizella car 0934 looking more like tangerine than the colour in the photos I posted earlier when it is in the USA



THIS one below for Jean-Pierre Jabouille at the EC GT race a Paris in April 1972 looks like a real one that I have not been able to identify so far.



The fact that PORSCHE is shown as the sponsor is more evidence. This MAY be the one car that went to France according to one of the sources.

These other ones below are also almost certainly "kit cars"
car #293 Hasselbecker racing team


car #20 Nirvelles Hans-Peter Joisten



Finally I dont think this is one for Kinnunen at the 1972 Arctic rally is a customer M491 car either although it is a definite 72 and entered as a Group 4 car. A clearer picture may help.



however given that 16 of the 21 cars were originally identified above and it looks like another 2 have been in the thread so far, the Spanish rally car and the Jean-Paul Jabouille car (so long as it was not one of the ones previously identified) that makes it 18 out of 21.

[mikael]

The Kubero car in the famous Christophorus photo is a 1967 car, "kept up to date". It was retrieved and renovated by Roland Larsson and his son some years back and has been seen in historic racing in Scandinavia mostly driven by Olle Wictorin. Roland is the RO in KUBERO, the others were KUrt Simonssen and BEngt Ekberg.