Provenance

[sithot]

The latest PANO has addressed an issue I've always held as important to any collector. That is, the history or provenance of an automobile.

As a friend has told me for years, "paper will lie still and you can write anything on it". What he implied is "it's easy to make up the truth".

Way back when I played with Corvettes it was "money in the bank" if your car was documented as Chevrolet didn't keep good records. More big block cars survived than Chevy ever produced! Unlike Ford (Marti Report) and Pontiac (PHS) it wasn't difficult to fake a car.

Porsche's original Kardex program was very good but the COA's can be rife with mistakes and translation issues and not every car is easy to run down. For instance; a friend with a '77 Carrera 3.0 with Turbo flares owned it 30+ years before anyone figured out it was a "Z Order" car. In his case the car is a true "Turbo" body complete with cutout for the turbo up-pipe that the '75-'77 cars had.

Having documentation when it comes time to sell will be to everyone's benefit. The buyer will have confidence and it certainly will cast a favorable light on you as the caretaker.

Tom

[72targa]

Good topic, for sure. Looking forward to the commentary.

[Jon B]

Having documentation when it comes time to sell will be to everyone's benefit. The buyer will have confidence and it certainly will cast a favorable light on you as the caretaker.

Just be aware that it's possible for documents to be forged or altered, especially scanned documents sent over the internet.

Cars are occasionally promoted with some supposedly significant provenance- a famous previous owner, or some racing history- although the promoter might not have any actual, legitimate proof or documentation of it.
At least this one did have some documentation ;-) ... http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...EAN-MARTIN-Car

Jon B.
Vista, CA

[Unobtanium-inc]

The best Provenance on a car is when there is 0 degree's of separation between the paperwork, the original owner, and the car. Like this 911E I pulled out of the barn that had been parked in 72. He still had the original title from Porsche when he had bought it at the Factory, as well as a file an inch thick of lots of other stuff. When it get's murky is when the car had changed hands a couple of times and people either at best get confused by the paperwork or at worst just fabricate the truth based on the thinnest of threads. I went to go look at a RUF 930 one time. It was badged Ruf and had some of the components. The guy said he had all the "paperwork" from RUF, etc. Once I pushed him on it he showed it to me. It was actually a letter from RUF and a pricelist, dated years after the car would have been made. So you had a 930 with some bolt on RUF stuff and a letter/pricelist from RUF, oh, and it still had a Porsche VIN. Thin at best.
Like Reagan said, "Trust but verify."

---Adam

[haul]

wow....perfect find...
I remember, when I was in school in Fulda, we used to play Basketball with the school kids from the stationed army employees.
We participated regularly in competitions and it was great fun.
One friend, who already passed away, managed then to buy one dark blue 911 off the military barracks for really low money.
We then used to drive the hell out on the roads of the Rhön area..

what happened to the "fulda gap car"?


br



haul

[Unobtanium-inc]

wow....perfect find...
I remember, when I was in school in Fulda, we used to play Basketball with the school kids from the stationed army employees.
We participated regularly in competitions and it was great fun.
One friend, who already passed away, managed then to buy one dark blue 911 off the military barracks for really low money.
We then used to drive the hell out on the roads of the Rhön area..

what happened to the "fulda gap car"?


br



haul

We bought a rare German car at a Navy auction in Norfolk one time, but rare doesn't always equal $$$, when the car isn't a Porsche...

You can read about it here:

https://unobtaniuminc.wordpress.com/...t-always-mean/

---Adam

[budge96]

P

wow....perfect find...
I remember, when I was in school in Fulda, we used to play Basketball with the school kids from the stationed army employees.
We participated regularly in competitions and it was great fun.
One friend, who already passed away, managed then to buy one dark blue 911 off the military barracks for really low money.
We then used to drive the hell out on the roads of the Rhön area..

what happened to the "fulda gap car"?


br



haul

Thanks for sharing �� ! That's precisely the kind of shite we're talking about ! B

[StephenAcworth]

As I've mentioned here on other threads in the past, provenance is a key ingredient in establishing value in other areas of 'rare artifacts'... for example, my friend is a C17th oak furniture dealer, and provenance is key to establishing credibility and authenticity... it is somewhat easy to fake furniture. I believe in the fine art world, generally, provenance is a key ingredient in determining market prices... I don't see why it should be any different in our world... I was fortunate to receive all the workshop invoices for my car from 1972 onwards when I bought it six years ago... but I would still love to find out what happened with its first owner during the first six years. To me the dossier I have on the car is both interesting and helps establish originality etc... that and the various stampings on the car, etc...

[beh911]

One of the more obscure pieces of paperwork on my car is stapled to a Brumos work order from the mid 1970s -- a rental car receipt.
The original owner (my friend) would drive the car down to Jacksonville for service from Raleigh NC due to lack of expertise in the Triangle.
He'd leave the car with them for the day and tool around in the rental car, turn it in, then drive home the next day in the 911.

I do agree that paperwork validates ownership and interesting details on a car. People seem to focus on the fact that it can be forged, which it can.

But don't forget that it can also be intentionally "forgotten" in a sale if it brings up repairs or problems or questionable ownership chains. I have seen that happen to a few people by pretty well known sellers.

[NZVW]

Provenance on a 45+ year old car is a luxury.
It has to be remembered that 20 yrs ago a 72 E was worth about 20k for a concourse condition car.
30 yrs ago no one really even wanted them (old porschers) and with that came the era of the "pimp my ride" mentality and as mentioned above "intentional Alzheimers" with regards to paper trail provenance was common place.
Misrepresenting a vehicle with false paperwork ( not necessarily ownership papers etc ) is fraud here in my country NZ as I am sure it is elsewhere but it is regarded as a civil issue and an expensive long drawn out affair.
Provenance showing previous ownership by Steve Mcqueen or Janis Joplin is a different kettle of fish.
I was fortunate, I purchased a 2 owner same area, same mechanic kept car. Surprisingly the paperwork was rather shallow and when I asked I was told in honesty that the second owner just did not keep a lot of it as was the norm back then when these cars did not really mean as much as they do today.
I keep everything now, maybe because we now know the importance of paperwork provenance and maybe because as I get older its nice to be able to check just how long ago it was that I got the car serviced ,,, That old Alzheimers again,
Mark