My 1969 E has the same bag
My 1969 E has the same bag
Here's a simple clean up project I did on my car around the seat mounts.
If your car is like most, that area between the seat and the door sill catches all sorts of nasty stuff. Over the years, the rain, spilled drinks, dirt, etc take their toll. It's sort of a black hole of unkept incorrectness... the side alley of a car's cabin that no one ventures down. Not to mention the general breakdown of the finishes on everything, leaving it corroded and the mounts rusting. You get the picture!
In the process of researching this, I looked at a number of other cars, and very few have this area 'correct', much less decent looking, restored and unrestored alike (go look at yours).
The hardware itself isn't the easiest to source. If you go to Porsche, they tell you the allen head screws are NLA. These screws have a special shallow head M6 x 15MM, the lock washers are very narrow and fit flush with the allen head, and the 6,4MM x 18MM fender washers for the mounting brackets don't even show up in the PET. Currently, Porsche carries the lock washers only, and my local dealer had no clue about the fender washers since they aren't in the PET...
This topic was delved into a bit here:
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ing-reproduced
Note the last post in the above thread, asking for info about the signs of a larger washer being used on the mounting bracket bolts at some point in his car's past. Well here it all is laid out for ya.
The details
Based on the 700 Mile S photo of untouched seat hardware found here (thanks to David Conklin):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8072442...7630169538658/
Note all seat hardware was originally gold, most likely cadmium plated. So what we get today is gold zinc.
I spoke with Mike Garriga at Stoddard who clued me into the 'off fiche' washer that didn't show up on the PET. He even went out into the warehouse to source some, in the proper gold zinc finish. So, here's what you need to get this sorted:
Stoddard Parts
(28) SIC-119-042-02 : M6 x 15 shallow head screw
(12) 900-151-003-02 : 6,4MM x 18MM fender washers (gold zinc)
(28) N-012-026-3 : Lock washers
The price of these parts is very reasonable. In fact, less than the incorrectly sized and plated stuff you will find at your local hardware store.
The results look fantastic to me. Just enough splash of color in a spartan interior to accentuate the seats and the other finishes around it. It will look even better when the Coco Mats arrive in a couple weeks...
So when you are done with this project, save your old hardware and have it replated down the road. And keep in mind that the seat support brackets are NLA as well, so don't toss em.
I hope this Porsche minutiae helps someone else 'get it right'.
-Bryce
Last edited by beh911; 12-04-2012 at 05:19 AM. Reason: spell
I have owned two original '69 cars....911T, buffalo hide, 912 waffle....your bag's exterior vinyl was more common to '67-'68 cars but there is no dogma as to which vinyl for which year. The girls in the upholstery shop just made up bags from what ever they had so materials overlap years. The tan interior is one of the wierd one year only exceptions as SWB cars had gray with your outside finish and most '69 later cars had a few buiffalo and mostly waffle but always grey inside.
Mark Smedley
'59 VW Typ I
'69 911T 2.7
'86 930
'04 GT3
'16 Boxster GTS
'08 MBZ AMG CLK 63 Black Series
OOPS! Early cars had black oxide allen/cap screws with small diameter split lock washers, also black, and then the yellow zinc wide 6mm washers....somewhere around '72 the cap screws started arriving in yellow zinc. Some of the only real cadmium on the cars were the seat rails....clear cad, not zinc.
"72-"73 cars also had the paper clip shaped washers under the two end cap screws on the chassis to rail plates.
Mark Smedley
'59 VW Typ I
'69 911T 2.7
'86 930
'04 GT3
'16 Boxster GTS
'08 MBZ AMG CLK 63 Black Series
It's hard to tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I posted...Originally Posted by smedley
What is your definition of 'early cars'? Is the 70S 'early' or late in your book?
Both my '69s and a '70T which I did own had black cap screws, etc. 71s I've seen and judged were the same. The '73 RS I restored last year had all yellow, except the little lock washers, and my memory says '72s were all yellow and that is when the strange paper clip washers started appearing.
Apoligies, "early" is now a relative term....I was specifically referring to '69-'73 cars. I am now dismantling my '67 911S for restoration and can't recall the seat rail stuff....I have a note book in which I make drawings and notes as to fastener sizes, plating, etc. Something tells me there was some clear/silver zinc on the rails, but I'll have to look at my notes.
Mark Smedley
'59 VW Typ I
'69 911T 2.7
'86 930
'04 GT3
'16 Boxster GTS
'08 MBZ AMG CLK 63 Black Series
Interesting.
We have the pic above of the 70S with gold zinc and your statement that you have seen 70 and even 71 cars with black oxide. Maybe it varied from S to T, as many Ts were Karmann at the time and had slightly different assembly guidelines or supply lines.
FWIW, my car originally had some -68 fasteners on it in various places. When the original owner went through the car for his refurb back in the late 70s, he laughed at how much of it didn't line up with the PET for 69 cars and went ahead and 'corrected the factory'...
Then again, 69 is that oddball year as the first LWB, but stuck in the SWB PET, so who really knows...
When it comes to proper finish, I think this might be one of those, 'whatever was in the fastener bins' when a car came down the line.
To make matters more uncertain, I have seen what I believe to be an untouched 72S with black oxide allen heads, so there goes any absolute for sure...
Bottom line then - look at my review above as guidelines for cleaning the area up and getting the right hardware, realizing the stuff at the hardware store doesn't cut it. Your mileage may vary on what was originally on your car as supplies seemed to change over time at the factory.
Mark,
I looked deeper into the condition of my left over fasteners from the switch out to the '700 Mile S' look shown in the above pic a few posts back. Underneath layers of grime, touched up corroded black oxide, and surprisingly, some paint (!?) were exactly what you described:
Black oxide allen head and lock washers, and yellow zinc fender washers.
So I cleaned them up, found a local service that does black oxide and had the allens and washers redone, reusing the Stoddard yellow zinc fender washers.
So your recollection on 'early' cars is holding up, as long as early is up to 69. We are still in the dark on what happens in '70, as the '700 Mile S' clearly has a different fastener setup. Plus your recollection that some Ts you have seen of same year having the 'early' car black oxide fasteners throws a wrench in it as well. My theory is still there that Ts were made differently at Karmann where hardware supplies may have been different from S cars made at the Porsche factory.
So thanks for your input.
Here is the final product, correct for a (er, my) 69S:
My '70T was driven a lot in weather and just "used" initially..until the '72 Can Am weekend at Elkhart Lake....axle deep mud in Porsche Park. When I got back to Indianapolis I decided to "clean" the bottom. Well, that went all winter and into spring with the car essentially being disassembled and everything cataloged and refinished. It became a PCA maniac car...driven to Parades, entered in all events, etc. Took 3rd behind Bob White's Patrick and Pat Scanlan's stunning black '68 911L, and 2nd in time trial at Brainard. I recall quite clearly black cap screws and split washers with yellow 6mm wide washers on that 1970 car.
Mark Smedley
'59 VW Typ I
'69 911T 2.7
'86 930
'04 GT3
'16 Boxster GTS
'08 MBZ AMG CLK 63 Black Series
Given the news of late (Otto and Bruce Anderson passing--very sad), and the very off topic discussions of a transaction gone sour (on a 69S no less), onto a happier topic:
How about a pic of the favorite part of my car, the fabled 69S engine! Complete with the original MFI pump and MFI transducer resoldered/tested by the famed Otto only 2 years ago.
9.9:1 compression, 190hp SAE out of 1991cc. The closest to a race engine put out by the factory in a production, air-cooled 911. Everything after was a compromise due to environmental and noise regulations, and some obscure concept called 'everyday driveability' ...
Leakdown is 2-3% across all cylinders. 87k documented miles with no major service work in 45 years.
Recent changes include the latest 930 tensioners, updated sprocket idler arms, new chain ramps, and collars.
2nd to being behind the wheel, this is my favorite vantage point.
Last edited by beh911; 02-09-2013 at 11:10 AM. Reason: spell
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