Question of Procedure

[Mr9146]

I think we've gotten a bit off track here and I'm definitely partially to blame.

I realize the "original" vs. "replacement" discussion ... my initial question was more in reference to the actual stamping of a blank case. I mean, if the factory provides blanks, and someone stamps a blank with a car's original number, is that really so egregious?

In the case of RS#056 it seems to be akin to heresy.

I've got no dog in this fight and I'm not defending anyone's actions or anything like that, but I think it's important that we ask the question: if it was really so "awful" to stamp a case then why would the factory supply blanks in the first place?

[beh911]

I think we are still on track actually.

It's about disclosure from the seller as others have pointed out.
And yes, as others have stated, it is not the original engine that the car left the factory with, so it affects value for some

[Mr9146]

I think we are still on track actually.

It's about disclosure from the seller as others have pointed out.
And yes, as others have stated, it is not the original engine that the car left the factory with, so it affects value for some

I'd like to focus less on the "value" aspect of the situation ... I've conceded that if it's not "original" then value is affected.

Let's try to keep the focus of the discussion on the "act" of stamping the blank case.

Is it okay to stamp a factory blank? I mean, that's what they were created for, right?

I say "smoke if you got 'em" ...

The case of RS#056 - no pun intended - illustrates that, apparently, it's NOT okay for someone to stamp a blank. I ask, "Why not?"

If someone stamps a factory blank case and the font is wrong but the number is right, is it still matching numbers regardless of the font? Technically I'd say it is. However, I believe there are two important aspects to the situation that need to be addressed:

1) The seller should disclose a stamped blank as such (if he, in fact, knows and which, in many cases, is debatable)
2) The buyer should know what a proper, factory engine stamp should look like

[NorthernThrux]

If the factory didn't want a blank to be stamped, then they would cross-hatch or otherwise deface the stamping area. It is that simple. So they obviously expected people (including the factory) would restamp cases, but maybe didn't anticipate that such cases might be used for "nefarious" purposes (not making any judgement here).

On the flip side, there are engines that grenaded that were rebuilt with all new parts at the factory or a shop, using the original stamped case. Somehow that is considered less egregious. In either case it is "correct" but in neither case is it "original". A simple, truthful disclosure leaves it up to a buyer to decide if its "acceptable". Different buyers, or members here, will have different definitions of acceptable.

Ravi

[gsjohnson]

If the factory didn't want a blank to be stamped, then they would cross-hatch or otherwise deface the stamping area. It is that simple. So they obviously expected people (including the factory) would restamp cases, but maybe didn't anticipate that such cases might be used for "nefarious" purposes (not making any judgement here).


On the flip side, there are engines that grenaded that were rebuilt with all new parts at the factory or a shop, using the original stamped case. Somehow that is considered less egregious. In either case it is "correct" but in neither case is it "original". A simple, truthful disclosure leaves it up to a buyer to decide if its "acceptable". Different buyers, or members here, will have different definitions of acceptable.

Ravi

I completely disagree that the factory left the stamping area for others to stamp the numbers that they desired.
I also disagree with your second statement...Engines were designed to be rebuilt. They were not designed to be replaced. Apple and Oranges...

[sithot]

"Blank" beats a re-stamp all day every day. The rapid rise in prices has brought out the would-be forgers.

Stamping a replacement case with the original number seems a bit less than forthright. Plastic surgery comes to mind! Augmented to "sell".

Corvettes (and other Chevy cars as George mentioned) got CE blocks and if you're really lucky you'll have the factory warranty information too but like George stated, it still hurts the value.
I think that should also apply to any Porsche.

In the grand scheme that's what this is all about. Money.

[RealRS#406]

It may seem that some are treating the case replacement of #56 as a deal breaker for the car. However the problem was presenting it as a numbers matching engine, although the font is clearly incorrect. This may have been inadvertent, but it was necessary to point it out.

Surely the only factor with case replacement is disclosure. The only time this is really important is when a car is being sold. Some buyer will be put off by a replaced crankcase, others less so. I would have thought there are far more important factors in determining the value of a car. How many race 2.8 RSRs would still have their original crankcase – I would venture very few, although many would still wear their original engine number. Let’s face it, the magnesium crankcase ís a 2.7 engines weak point.

I would assume most 72 RSs that have NOTHING replaced would be low mileage cars. In my view they may be worth more, but not a lot more. If one pays a large premium for a car because of little use, obviously you can’t use it without destroying the premium. I realise others will have a different view.

In Australia I race in a series for production sports cars which is dominated by 74 and 75 Carreras. The front running cars are getting well in excess of 300 DIN horsepower, and crankcase failure is common. The race rules are that the car must have a correct 2.7 Carrera engine and chassis number.
For road use in Australia , I understand a car must have an engine number – you can’t run around with a blank case. I expect that may be the case in other countries as well.

The 911 engine is different to Chevs and Ferraris, which have a far more substantial block , incorporating engine barrels and crankcase into one unit, which carries the engine number.
The 911 crankcase is the only component that could carry an engine number, however it is a component that fails, and requires replacement in a significant number of cases, otherwise we ould not be having this discussion.

I can’t understand how anyone could think an RS is less valuable if it has its barrels and pistons, or other wearing engine components replaced. It costs $20-$30,000+ to properly overhaul a 911 engine, and I would pay a premium for a car rebuilt by a reputable shop with factory parts.

There have been rumours for years about Porsche remaking a replacement case for the 2.7, and I wonder if they did this , would it be magnesium or aluminium.
I realise I will upset the purists, but if my car had a leaking magnesium case, I would seriously consider this option. I would prefer the car to be able to give another 40 years of riving pleasure, athough I would be 110, when it needed its next overhaul.

Rising values require authentication processes to weed out fraudulent cars, however we should not become too precious in the process.

[geshaghi]

A few years ago, I bought an early car that had been "updated" with a turbo motor, but the case was unstamped. The car had some receipts from Andial, who as I understand provided support for factory racing teams and had a close factory relationship. I called them to see if they had any records for the car. They had just purged their files shortly before I called, so no documentation was available, but as part of the discussion, they indicated that they regularly received blank factory cases, and that whenever they installed one in a car, they stamped the case with the original case number, no exceptions (the old fellow at Andial was very emphatic about this, insisting that they would have done this even for a turbo motor going into a longhood - the way he spoke, I got the impression that he felt it would be very wrong not to do so). Keep in mind that it wasn't that long ago that these were all just used cars and driven as such, and engine cases can and do wear out. Stamping replacement cases was probably the common practice, and may have been a factory requirement.

I think that despite whatever else one might argue, this really comes down to value and market acceptance of these re-stamped cases, and I often ponder these questions. The Ferrari and Corvette markets may be instructive in this regard. It seems that vintage Ferraris with Ferrari Classiche re-stamped engines are accepted as virtually equivalent to an original stamped engine block, and no market penalty is applied, but these cars also come restored with the factory seal of approval and disclosure of the re-stamp. The Corvette world has seen engine re-stamping in abundance over the years, but some changes in Bloomington standards have been made recently that encourage disclosure. A Corvette with a disclosed re-stamp may achieve gold, but if a car is found to have re-stamped engine block that is not disclosed, it is penalized for the non-disclosure by being disallowed gold for a period of time. It seems to me that both of these communities are recognizing the life these machines lead in the past as utilitarian objects, and are trying to encourage disclosure as a method that maintains standards and value.

[curtisaa]

"
In the grand scheme that's what this is all about. Money.

Without question the best sentence that has come from the "gentleman from the south" , in years... Sorry Marco, but it is a very slippery slope and it's either original or NOT !! All else is dubious.

[pu911rsr]

Well I think this is a very interesting conversation, thanks Marco. I do undertsand the numbers matching thing but to me the case is just one of the many components of the engine, is just happens to be the one with a serial number on it. I suppose at the end of the day if an engine gets rebuilt it no longer the factory orginal engine either, just like original paint, like paint it's a wear item that needs to be redone at some point in time. So if a case gets destroyed, which was comman place years ago, and it replaced with a new blank case that is restamped with old # I guess that practice is Ok. Now if someone is building a car with fake numbers that is obviously not ok.
Phil