1968 T/R - "Out Of Africa"

Bantam,
Congratulations for the great find! Very special car.

Regarding the rear flares, I think there is something confusing about this subject...
Somewhere on this thread, it is said that the rear flares were fitted right on the beginning of this car's life...
Observing their shape on the picture you posted right on the beginning, they look a bit like RS 2.7 shape or near SC's shape.
Around 69-70 the only available shape allowed to fit this cars were the ST type, as shown on the homologation form - I assume you are restoring this car under FIA spec's has it used to be earlier on.
Nowadays, it is the only allowed shape for rear flares accepted for SWB's on FIA events.
I am not sure, but I also think that by that time, (when you said the flares were fitted), the RS style flares were not available... (???)

I am also building a TR recreation from a matching number 68 T that "suffered" an upgrade very similar to yours...

Attachment 203478

and the rear flares actually allowed on FIA events, together with the stock ones, are those on this very well known car:

Attachment 203480

... which, in my humble opinion, don't really look like yours...

Maybe yours were custom made by some skilled guy at that time... ???

AlexJ

I don't know exactly when the flares were widened, all I do know is that it was done in Africa early on in its history having been delivered new from the factory to Kenya; from what I have found out to date through my research I would say it is looking like it was done in Kenya sometime between late '68 and 1970/71.

Although there were rear flares homologated for the 911T in document FIA/CSI Homologation Nr. 577 for Group 3 GT (dated 1/1/1968), prior to my cars build in June 1968, I believe the flares on my car were formed from reworking the existing metal work. There is no evidence on the underside of additional material added whilst there are clear signs of intense reworking/hammer work of the original rear wing and inner wheel arch area ; in addition the front arches were also rolled/enlarged slightly to comfortably accommodate deep 6" wheels on the front.

This early photo of the ex Alan Hamilton TR shows a very similar arch treatment.

From what I know, not all T Rally cars were delivered with Flares. It was a seperate part so you would see the seam. They were also shaped like the R. The Hamilton car looks reshaped as well in that old shot. It looks closer today.

Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bantam

This early photo of the ex Alan Hamilton TR shows a very similar arch treatment.

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Can't see the picture...

AlexJ - The picture is there when I look at the thread so not sure why you are not seeing it?

Tim, i cant see the picture either ?

that is strange as i can

I just re read some of this great thread. I do not think this car came with rear Flares originally. Not all T Rally cars did. IF your rear bumpers are original they are not widened as the factory did when a car had flares. You have standard narrow unmodified bumpers. This might explain why it wears the non standard flare. To see what I mean look at my 66 prototype http://www.Porsport.com to see the factory R T/R flare and widened rear bumpers.

Don

When Porsche delivered these cars with flares they had the widened steel bumpers. Just trying to show that Bantam's car did not originally come with flares based on the rear bumpers he has. Another tell is the seam for the factory flare or should I say where the seam starts above the torsion bar hole. The give away obviously is period photos showing the stock bumpers and modified flares. I would restore the car the way it looked in period OR try and replicate the factory R T/Rally flare which is not so easy. I will try and post a photo.

Don

A. That is not where the factory put the seam and B. Those are in no way factory flares!! Great car just home grown flares and not that it is a bad thing.

Don

My bullshit meter just exploded. No way, not in the SWB era. There was ONE factory flare for 67 and 68 and that is not it. They were availible as on option. I have seen a Kardex that shows that and they were availible as a seperate part. What does the above list prove anyway?

Don

It seems logical to me that if a customer ordered flares back in '67-'68 (or anytime for that matter), the factory would have shipped the car with matching bumpers. Perhaps factory racers would have left Werks without matching bumpers, but for a customer I think Porsche would have made sure that the bumpers matched the flares. It wouldn't matter whether the car was intended to be used in anger (raced) or was simply a showpiece. Time and again pride in workmanship would have trumped. Here's a pic of Don's Prototype which he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but has factory flares and factory bumpers. If this car was truly the R flare prototype car then it's obvious the factory knew that the bumpers needed to be widened.


http://www.thepocketsolution.com/ima...S/DSCN2163.jpg

My two cents.
-Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

that is not a R bumper,let alone there is no proof that it is a R flare-please look at the well known R prototype1 thru 4.Hamilton's car for all intended purposes is a T/R what most don't realize is that they were not legal everywhere or event-even if homologated-flares on top of that were only recommended for the 7R wheels which were recommended with the 911R engine and rally muffler.Please refer to the known factory kit number for rally T and L and look at the components included.

Please,look at all the factory plate entered cars during this period.The whole reason this flare is unique is not because it it T/R there is another reason.



raj

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Hi Raj,

I certainly don't want to jump into the fray here and take sides, but I was standing next to Jurgen at RRIV when he told Don those were definitely factory-done flares.

Mike

Raj we do not need more misinformation. My car is an example of factory R T/R flares with widened T/R bumpers. We all know the R had glass bumpers. If you ordered a T Rally with flares this is exactly how it would look. There are enough original T Rally cars around today that prove this out. There are no other mystery flares from the factory for 68. If Tim's car had flares form the factory it would look like my car with those bumpers. If the bumpers that he has are original to his car then his car was not delivered with flares. Period. Anything it wears now like so many other cars that went racing was done by their owners. Hell even your old R had it's flares modified and you thought those were original. There are no big mysteries like you would like to believe. Just misinformation.

Don

Even though this photo of Pauli Toivonen's car at 1968 1000 Lakes Rally (also used at Danube 68 by Pauli T. , & MC 68 by Elford-Stone...if plates were kept on the same body) shows similar flairs to what has been declared the 'normal' 67/8 flair.

I've been around this globe long enough , that myself , I try to shy away from making absolute statements about something being only one way....they generally come back to bite.

Appear to be Group 3 (T/R) flares to me on the Toivonen car

Just to clarify, I am 99% certain that the flares were done in Kenya. I do find it fascinating that they are so similar to the ones in the photo of the Hamilton car in its early years given that the two cars were on different continents; maybe any skilled metal workers amongst us can add some knowledge with regard to the shape achieved....is this the result of hammer work on the existing metal work, and therefore perhaps why they ended up looking so similar, or would this profile have required the addition of more material? Again I am fairly certain the bumpers are original to the car with original 6809 paint underneath (as found on the rest of the car) together with welded up trim holes (see pics) . As mentioned before the fronts on my car have also received some reprofiling to allow 6" wheels to be accommodated.

Don - thanks you for your interest. I don't believe I suggested they were "factory" flares, or indeed that the car came from the factory like this; I actually once considered reverting back to no flare when I first got the car as I understood this was how it left the factory. With more knowledge, the generous input of a number of members and a better "feel" for the car I now believe they are a very important part of the car's character and will remain the way they are, I certainly wouldn't want to retro fit other flares that have no connection to my car because I feel this would compromise its integrity.

Raj - thanks for the input and taking the time to post the photo. Yes they will be taken back to bare metal at some stage and I would love to share what I find with you and the forum; if you can add any more info please do, or if you can point me in the direction of what I should be looking for I would be very grateful......I have plenty to learn!

Managed an hour in the garage this afternoon before frost bite set in. Removed the oil tank which appears in pretty good nick other than a generous helping of African dirt.

A few close ups. Whilst the connector on the pipe is dated 6/68 (the car's month of build) the oil sender at 5/65 represents the earliest part date found so far. Given the cars history (delivered and remained in Africa until three years ago) and the consistent level of patina on the parts there is no reason to think that these two examples are not original to the car and therefore demonstrates that stock rotation at the factory may not have been that strong in some cases!

Tim,
Came back to this post, pg 20, to reference the door panels. Can you confirm that no thin foam layer was used between the panel and vinyl? Please and thanks.

Hi Bob

Yes correct, no foam.

Regards

Started to strip down the top of the engine prior to removal shortly.

Tim, now that you are stripping the engine down, can you provide the parting # from the top of the case, and the casting dates from under the pulley when you get that far. TIA.

Removed the engine and gearbox together with the reinforced Nadella drive shafts and rear brake guards.

Where do you get those neat engine intake plugs? Chris

Here you go, Chris.... http://www.alliance-express.com/tapered-cap-or-plug ...just "plug" away.../ Lars...

Ooops... seems to be down at present, try http://www.harmancorp.com/

Chris

The engine intake plugs were a special Sports Purpose part only available to factory supported cars from Werk 1 in the day.........




Ebay "piggy bank" money box stoppers:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Money-Box-...53931954388852

I went for the 35mm which give a fit without being too tight

Regards

Tim - I just spent the last 2 days reading up on this. What a fascinating story and one that looks like it's got some distance to run yet. Will you be going to CLM this year? Would be great to meet up and say hello.

All the best,

Richard

Hi Richard

Thanks for the note regarding the thread......I have been following your restoration (and previous engine work) on DDK with interest; I noted your comment regarding your concern that you were documenting too much detail......I think I will be charged with the same offence!

Yes plan to be at Classic Le Mans with a few friends, would be good to compare notes over a bier.

Cheers

:-) You're in a different league to me - it seems I need to up my game. Spent an enjoyable hour this afternoon polishing the door striker plates, making sure I didn't scratch the plastic. I felt most Tiltonesque.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

Part numbers

Part number for T/R arches 901.503.325 and 326 - For Group 3 homologation - Stock ones could be used or this ones:

Attachment 213407Attachment 213408

part number for R - Group 4 only
rear fender extension
right 901.503.603.60
left 901.503.604.60

Attachment 213409

rear bumper 901.505.020.60

front bumper 901.505.001.60


front fender

right 901.503.034.60
left 901.503.033.60

This four last parts were only available for Group 4 - On a T/R they had to be steel.

raj

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Hope this is not misinformation!

The last photo IS the 67R and 68T Rally Porsche group 3 flare with matching T Rally bumper. Undisputed by the many experts who have scrutinized this car.

Don

That flare has got that "quick kick out" associated with the R. Don - are you able to elaborate on the bumper in relation to meeting the flare?

Bob, Porsche split the bumper along the top edge and added a long tringular piece of metal to kick out the side of the bumper to meet the edge of the flare and widen the top. The bracket along the side was lengthened also so the side of the bumper could effectively be pulled out. Hope that explains not confuses that! :)

Don

Thanks Don. Makes sense. Always interesting to SWBs with flares and type of flares then to see how the rear bumpers were modified.

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...1R11899010.jpg
Similar but wider on above car ?

Below is page 12 from the 68 GT group 3 FIA Homologation paper 577 11/30/67 for 01/01/68 911T(R).
Part 901.503.325./326.00 for 7J x 15". (Foto 3)
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6974/dsc01637zy2.jpg

Quite a long time since I managed an update, so here goes.....

Having removed the engine and gearbox the car is now off its wheels and on a trolley ready for the removal of brakes and running gear.

I have continued to clean up a number of parts and will report on those in detail at a later date. Other parts such as wheels should be back from refurbishment soon so again I will update once I get them back.

The car was produced without heating, running headers etc...

The left and right heating duct tinware off the engine have a pair of red plastic (although fading form the African sun) caps with a screw to secure; I can't believe these are factory fitment so a couple of questions:

1. What should the blanking pieces look like?

2. Has anyone seen anything like these red caps used before.....they have no markings and are a perfect fit.

......any help or thoughts gratfully received.

threaded caps and then a self taping screw to secure .... that looks like local engineering to me..... but I'm no expert at all.

Nick, I am sure you are correct.........anyone got an example of what the factory would have used? Interested to understand what would have been used even though I might go with what was on the car.

I am pretty sure they still ran the tubes down through the sheet metal to dump the hot air. They were not blocked off.

Don

Thanks Don, I have seen that on a few cars; maybe this was a "local" modification due to the dusty environment although you would have thought they would have been more concerned about removing heat?

Few pictures of front right hand side caliper I have just removed; plenty more if anyone needs any specific shots for reference:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bantam

Nick, I am sure you are correct.........anyone got an example of what the factory would have used? Interested to understand what would have been used even though I might go with what was on the car.

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I would like to change my answer to another possibility. My 67 factory Rally Kit car has 356 door jamb plugs used as block offs. They fit right on. These are the large black plugs it the top forward part of the door jamb. My car was parked in 1970. Not sure if they were factory installed but the car does have factory headers so maybe.
Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bantam

. . . car was produced without heating, running headers . . . The left and right heating duct tinware off the engine have a pair of red plastic (although fading form the African sun) caps with a screw to secure; I can't believe these are factory fitment . . . they have no markings and are a perfect fit . . .

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One o' those classic 'resto-conundrums' --- what to do w/ the 'odd bits'

You asked for 'thoughts,' so . . .

With no disrespect for Porsche Engineering, whatever was there on this car to start with --- failed/didn't work/fell-off/ain't there now . . . so what you're looking at is The Solution that Worked

Besides . . . wholesale replacing-of-stuff 'just 'cause' or because something doesn't look/feel correct (to you) just scrubs-off that much more of the car's character + history

Personally? --- I love seeing stuff like this . . . gives a real sense of what someone came up w/ while actually using the car as it was intended

Imagine some Previous Owner --- that Local Engineer . . . walking by this car, having heard The Story --- where it came from + circumstances . . . then peering inside/underneath, looking for those caps + screws that he put in, on some road-side or shed God-knows-where/when? . . .

Imagine him finding/seeing them there --- just the way he left them . . .


. . . or --- imagine him not



If something works? . . . why not leave it?

Couldn't agree more; as I have researched the car and started to understand what I have I am really keen to preserve as much as possible, so anything that can be reasonably left "as is" will be. Take for example the roll bar......when I first got the car I would have planned to rub it down and repaint it satin black.....not now, 45 year old factory paint has a certain aged look that just can't be captured once repainted. In a similar way the little bits of detail like the red caps that you quite rightly point out have become part of the car's history are important so again I will retain them.

On the subject of detail, when I removed the glove box liner I found the strip of tape (pics 2 & 3 below) trapped between the liner and the dash frame.....similar to the one on the air cleaner (see final two photos); probably originally stuck to the edge of the engine bay?

Couple of other bits of detail.....Ugandan tax disc and brackets on engine bay rear wall for oil surge tank......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bantam

. . . as I have researched the car and started to understand what I have I am really keen to preserve as much as possible, so anything that can be reasonably left "as is" will be . . . old factory paint has a certain aged look . . . In a similar way the little bits of detail like the red caps . . . have become part of the car's history . . . so again I will retain them . . .

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Good for you, Tim! Keep every little 'signature' that you can --- your car is so unique . . . those bits are your car

My car's PO replaced the original windshield, during a re-spray, some years before. He recalled that there was a 'service sticker' of some type --- Austrian, he thought . . . . stuck to it --- but pitched it w/ the 'shield! And no photo/details

No matter how tattered --- how I miss that bit . . . especially hearing only of the glimpse the PO had of it . . .

Bantam:

Great to see that you are back at it, documenting and preserving the OoA T/R.

We will need some winter entertainment so please keep the ruminations and pics coming.

Realised I had not posted pictures of the flywheel I found when I split the engine and transmission; Sports Purpose Flywheel (lightened), part number 901.102.201.10

Posted this on another thread that was looking into the correct colour for hinges, thought I should add to this thread as part of the research into the car:

My June '68 build TR (11820xxx) has what looks like a mixture of body colour (Tangerine) and black (see first two pics below of engine lid hinges, ignore the purple/brown paint the car received in Uganda) whilst another TR (11820834) had a similar treatment (see third pic).

Aesthetics were probably not top of the factory's list of priorities for competition cars and perhaps these cars were removed from the regular production line before a final paint/quality stage that production cars would have received?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bantam

Asthetics were probably not top of the factory's list of priorities for competition cars and perhaps these cars were removed from the regular production line before a final paint/quality stage that production cars would have received?

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Asthetics...no; Go fast stuff...yes!

One of the T/R's available here...

http://carsonline.com.au/bernadou.html

Old ad unfortunately Peter

Thanks Cam. Seems to always be the case these days. At least it's an interesting reference...

Not much to report in terms of physical progress with the car lately, however plenty has been happening in terms of researching the early history of the car. Some may have seen a post that was added a couple of months ago to a thread I started looking for information on one of the circuits that I believed the car had competed at in Kenya, this post was from Philip Sargeantson, son of the first owner of the car Peter Sargeantson, who is sadly no longer with us. A subsequent exchange of emails and I was put in touch with Peter's widow Ann who is now living close to Philip and his wife Wendy in Western Australia.

Ann has been so generous with her time, putting pen to paper to provide a fascinating account of collecting the car from the factory, its subsequent use in competition together with an insight into Peter's very full life involving vintage planes, competition department MG's and taking part in the East African Safari rally. In addition I have received scans from her Porsche scrapbook that documents their time with the car in terms of events, newspaper cuttings and photos together with an introduction to a couple of Peter's friends from the late '60's.

Whilst I am still in the process of pulling all the information together I thought I would share one of the photos from late 1968 which shows the car in pursuit of a Mk1 Ford Escort twin cam at the Embakasi Circuit in Kenya.

(I hope the good fortune I have had following four years of little to no progress with regard to research serves as encouragement to others experiencing similar frustrations.....hang in there, you just never know when or how that break will come)

fantastic! absolutely fantastic archeology going on here. :)

Wonderful thread Tim; a special car indeed, hopefully I'll get to see it one day. :)

Cheers,

HI Tim

Really glad you are stating to get info on the car and even images, WOW, enjoy it

As mentioned above Ann Sargeantson, Peter's widow, kindly wrote to me detailing the background to them obtaining the car, together with their adventures collecting the 911T from the factory:


In 1955 in Manchester, England I married Peter George Sargeantson. I was just 18 and Peter was 27. Peter was home on leave from Kenya where he was serving as a Police Officer having just completed a two year tour of duty. At that time a state of emergency had been declared within the British colony as a result of the Mau Mau uprising and recruitment by the then Colonial Office in London had taken place to enlist officers to help maintain the security and stability of the country. Two months after our marriage we flew by piston aircraft, I think it was a Comet, (24 hour flight) from London to Nairobi, the capital, (re-fuelling in Paris, Tripoli, Benghazi, Cairo and Khartoum) to commence a new tour of duty. It was then November 1955 and the last month of autumn in Kenya.

Through Gordon Crow, who was then the Porsche agent in Nairobi, Peter placed an order to take delivery of a 911T whilst on home leave in 1968. If the order of the specification of the car was fairly simple, the payment of such a vehicle was not. Kenya had a “soft currency” in shillings. One hundred Kenya shillings was the equivalent of 5 pounds sterling. I think the car cost at that time about 3,000 pounds. Mrs Crow ran the office and was very au fait with the currency exchange regulations in Kenya at that time. Tourism, which brought hard currency to the country, i.e. sterling and dollars, was always a boost to the economy. However, if you were employed in the country and received your salary in Kenya shillings, you can imagine how keen you would be if someone was prepared to pay sterling into your bank account in the U.K. in exchange for goods or services in Kenya. I suppose it was a form of money laundering, and one had to be very careful as Kenya was a one party state and almost a dictatorship. However, between the Kenya shilling, the pound sterling and the German deutsche mark, we bought the car.

After renewing contact again with family and friends in England, Peter and I flew to Stuttgart from London to take delivery of the car. We flew by Eagle Airways, who subsequently went out of business, in an Argonaut aircraft. I have to mention that Peter’s main passion in life was aeroplanes; not the commercial or military type but vintage, veteran. I think his favourite aeroplane was the Tiger Moth and, I think, there was also a Gypsy Moth. He loved flying and actually held a PPL (having qualified in a Colt) so the flight to Stuttgart was of great interest to him with the knowledge and understanding of the procedure of take-off and landing. The mini bus which took us to the aircraft was all rather jolly as a group of Germans had been on holiday salmon fishing in Scotland and as it was rather expensive to hold a permit for fishing on a given stretch of river, they were all very keen to get their catch back home. Consequently, there was a rather large number of cool boxes accompanying them on the bus. This, of course, would not be allowed today. We boarded the aircraft, fish and all, when a few minutes later an announcement came from one of the Stewards that we must disembark and go back to the bus and wait on the tarmac as, on pre-flight check, the Captain had found a half inch cut in the tyre of the wheel of the under-carriage. This caused great alarm as any delay in take-off would extend the time in which the salmon would eventually reach a table. Insult was added to injury, when an airport official was seen (and Peter also witnessed this) to be kicking the offending tyre. Peter later told me that this was not an unknown procedure. However, the expertise, reputation and patriotism of English aviation became very much into question at that time! Eventually we all re-boarded and had an uneventful flight to Stuttgart.

The following day Peter and I went to the Porsche factory to collect the car. The reception area was quite something with an almost museum like atmosphere, showing the history and achievements of Porsche through the ages. In addition, there was a shop where one could purchase a Porsche related item as an added extra; all beautifully displayed but terribly expensive. However, the immaculate reception area and the goods on display in the shop were nothing compared to the receptionist. “Can I help you sir”. She was blond and blue eyed and wore the Bavarian national dress; very high waisted skirt and the white broderie Anglaise blouse cut very low. If Sargeantson had been impressed with the reception area and everything on display, this was nothing compared to the blond, blue eyed beauty behind the desk itself. He informed her of the order that had been placed in Kenya, and that he had come to collect his 911T. After consulting various ledgers, all seemingly placed on a level beneath the counter itself, and much straining of neck and eyes by Sargeantson to be in a position to read them, she advised him that the car was not yet ready. “You seem to be very hot Mr. Sargeantson”. “Can I get you a cool drink?”. Peter was indeed feeling the heat, and I stood behind him thinking: this will be a story for him to tell (and elaborate on) when he gets back to Kenya and has a night out with the boys. “Yes, I am rather hot” said Peter, who, poor soul, was now sweating quite visibly. She went to a dispenser and brought him a frosted glass of iced Coca Cola; nothing for me. He signed various forms with his usual flamboyant signature and we went back to the hotel making arrangements to collect the car the following morning.

Staying in our hotel we met a fellow who had been on the same Eagle flight. He was in Stuttgart on business and worked for SKF the ball-bearing company. Apparently the rep. he was supposed to be taking out for dinner that night had called to say that his wife was ill and could not make the dinner date. He was, therefore, delighted when I suggested we should all meet for a drink and dinner. Peter was horrified, but not surprised, at my bold suggestion. However, we three had a wonderful evening and a meal at a restaurant where our host must have been well-known, as I was given a large bouquet of flowers and a violinist who stood by me at the table and serenaded me with It’s a Long Way to Tipperary. I don’t remember the name of our host, but he must have had a most generous entertainment allowance for his regular visits to Germany.

We went back to the factory the following morning and collected the car. Motoring back along the Autobahns and crossing the channel by ferry, we eventually reached England and, more important, home to our two year old son Philip.

Peter joined the Kenya Police in 1953 and left the force in 1963; remaining in the country to join Marshalls, a Peugeot agency, with the holding company in Croydon.
Life settled down once again in Kenya for another tour this time in Nyeri (pronounced Nearee). Nyeri is 96 miles north of Nairobi, the capital, and is a small African trading town. By this time Peter had left the Police Force and was working for a company selling the Peugeot motor car. The European population was very small, perhaps about 50, but had one wonderful asset – the Outspan Hotel – which was described as a “feeder” hotel for Treetops. If you sit on the back veranda of the Outstpan Hotel, drink in hand (an absolute must) you would experience the backdrop of Mount Kenya. This majestic mountain, sometimes with snow on the top peak (Batian), stood at 17,040 ft./ above sea level. I have many times cupped my hands together (drink on the table) and looked at this wonderful mountain to be held in my memory for future reference. Treetops was a nest in a large, multi-limbed fig tree in the Aberdare Forest near Mount Kenya. Platforms were built into the upper branches of the tree, and from a ledge 30ft. above the ground visitors (who slept in the tree in specially adapted bedrooms) could look down on a pool of mud, spicy with salt, where animals came each night to bathe, play and feed; this salt lick was very popular with elephant. An excellent dinner was provided for guests, and was described as a kind of periscope out in the forest thirty feet up in the leaves. It was here in 1952 Princess Elizabeth who was on holiday with the Duke of Edinburgh heard of the death of her father King George VI.

Peter did so much during his life that I am delighted and not altogether surprised that part of his legacy has come back, and it would seem that Tim will restore this with much sympathy both for the car and its original owner.

Ann.

What a lovely story - this really adds to the conservation work you are doing on the car. Great Job!

R

Fantastic story. The detail of her recollection 45 years later is astonishing. Truly wonderful.

-Dave

My favorite thread here ever. It's like watching a long running documentary. I really admire your treatment of this car Tim.

John

I have to agree John. Just a fantastic story and car.

Seems Tom C. and Ann should get together for some story telling and writing.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fryardds

I have to agree John. Just a fantastic story and car.

Seems Tom C. and Ann should get together for some story telling and writing.:)

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That's funny Brian, I was thinking exactly the same thing while reading Ann's reminiscence. ;)

What a fabulous story Tim & what wonderful images it conjures up ...

Having been to Africa once, and having it etched deep into my heart, I'm just relishing this whole experience you're going through, Tim. Ann's detailed account of the plane travel, the reception desk, and the Treetops is fabulous!

My own car isn't as exotic a bird as Tim's T/R, but these stories really make me love it all the more because I know that, even though it can't tell me where it's been, it's seen a lot of beautiful places and carried a lot of interesting people around in its 44yrs on this planet.

...but I digress :)

Thank you for all the kind comments, I will obviously ensure they are passed on to Ann.

Whilst I am still pulling together some of the information I have received regarding the early years of the 911 I have a couple of photos that serve as background to Peter's competition career.

Between 1956 and 1968, when he purchased the 911, Peter competed successfully with a couple of MGA's (1500 & 1600) that he had obtained direct from the competitions department at Abingdon having got to know Marcus Chambers who arranged for the cars to be "breathed on"; he also raced a rather hairy ex Phil Scragg V8 Alta Jaguar.

Not content with just circuit racing, Peter also entered the 1964 East African Safari Rally in a Peugeot 404 (he was by now working for a Peugeot agency), competing that year against such well known names as Erik Carlsson and Vic Elford; Peter was second in his class and one of just 21 finishers from a starting line up of 94.

Having been put in touch with Ann it was great to learn about their adventures collecting the car from the factory. I was waiting to hear about their journey to a port and its shipment to Kenya, only to discover that they brought the car to the UK first for Peter to spend the summer of 1968 competing in his new car; in total Peter entered seven events during the 1968 UK season before shipping the car to Kenya.

What was even more amazing to discover was that the very first event entered was the BARC Harewood Hill Climb meeting on 21st July 1968 (note this was no more than ten days after taking delivery of the car at the factory). To prove what a small world this is.......the car that I purchased from Uganda took part in its first competitive event in Yorkshire less than 30 miles from where I was living as young boy waiting to start his first year at school!

Peter had a successful start capturing a class win......after originally finishing second in class the first placed Morgan was disqualified for non standard bodywork.

The photos below show Peter climbing the Harewood hill complete with the German export Zoll plates (apparently he never registered the car in the UK that summer, just running around on these Zoll plates, something he continued to do when the car got to Kenya).

Tim - this story keeps getting better & better ...

Thanks Andy, yes it was quite a surprise to discover the UK element of the cars competition history!

Peters first race was at the Mallory Park Nottingham Cup car races meeting on Sunday 28th July 1968; in a relatively small grid made up of mainly MG's and Healey's (three E Types failed to appear) Peter managed 4th overall and second in class.

It is interesting to note in the Motoring News report mention of the "racing exhaust system", this was the sports purpose bracket (901.111.153.00) and twin megaphones (901.111.035/6.00) that could be put on in place of the normal exhaust back box for closed circuit use and formed part of the competition Kit II (901.100.907.00).

Wonderful Tim. Just wonderful. What a story!............

Regards
Mike

The following weekend the car competed in two race meetings, on Saturday 3rd August 1968 it was the National Meeting at Crystal Palace whilst the following day it was the BARC Meeting at Thruxton.

At Crystal Palace having qualified 8th, Peter managed to climb to 4th overall and second in class whilst at Thrtuxton he qualified 12th for Race 1 but I have been unable to find his final position other than to know he didn't make the top 4. This supports the belief that the hillclimb/sprint nature of the gearbox ratios worked well on the tighter circuits but left the car struggling for top speed on fast open circuits such as Thruxton.

A few photos from the Crystal Palace meeting on 3rd August 1968:

He was up against some legendary names/drivers too - notably Bill Nicholson (MGB), Jem Marsh (Marcos), John Britten (Midget), etc

Another great chapter ...

Amazing... one of the best thread :)

Great research Tim, almost as enjoyable as the driving ! :)

The following weekend it was the Tootal Cup Car Races meeting at Mallory Park, in the 15 lap Special Sports Car Race Peter managed a third in class.

This intensive summer of competition continued at Brands Hatch on Sunday 18th August 1968 at the Amasco Trophy Car Races Meeting, result unknown at this stage although I have discovered that this race unfortunately saw a fatality when John Bending crashed his MG Midget at Pilgrim's Rise so it is possible that the race was never concluded?

One of the photos in the paddock shows Peter stood astride the road exhaust that was removed to allow fitment of the Sports Purpose megaphones for the race; whilst the unfinished wheels can be clearly seen.

The final UK event that Peter entered prior to shipping the car to Kenya was the BARC "One Mile Sprint" held at Elvington Airfield on Sunday 25th August where he managed a first in class with a FTD of 38.67 seconds just beating the Porsche 911L of J. Parker; the event included a fantastic selection of entires including Aston Martin 212 and Jaguar "D" Type, pretty impressive for a regional sprint event.

Peter and Ann then shipped the car to Kenya, the final photo shows the car shortly after arriving in Mombasa.

Great pictures. It's amazing to see these shots from so long ago

This one reminds me of how much times've changed . . .

Great pics ! I have 4 questions

1- How far in between are the round holes in the pressure plate ? How many holes are there ?

2- I guess now that the mistery about the flares is cleared up, are you going to revert the back panel to original form ?

3- What brand of tires where mounted ?

4- Whay would she have a gun ? :D

cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by platas

Great pics

4- Whay would she have a gun ? :D
cheers

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Looks like a young man with a cap pistol.
I know when I was that age I went everywhere with mine.
H

Quote:

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Looks like a young man with a cap pistol.
I know when I was that age I went everywhere with mine.

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Me too Harvey....... A Nichols Stallion 45.......... and I still have it, with all 6 two piece bullets......... ;)

As Rick said shows "how much times've changed".....these days they would be stood scrolling on a phone or tablet......or more likely they sadly just wouldn't be there!

San (Platas) - to answer your questions:

1. do you mean the flywheel (as in post #274)?
2. no the plan is to stick with the flares as they are which we believe were added circa late '69/early '70 - a number of reasons for this decision which I will go into in more detail as the restoration progresses but basically revolves around keeping as much "as is"
3. on the Kardex the car came with Dunlop 165-15 on the 5.5" wheels, however, by the time the car was shipped to Kenya (as shown in the final photo) the car has obtained deep 6's on the rear with what look like Dunlop Racing tyres probably 5.50 M-15
4 ........tough place Brands Hatch

Tim,

Yes as in post 274

thank you for the anwasers, and will keep following this great story.

Once back in Kenya Peter continued to compete in the car taking in meetings at the two main Kenyan circuits, Embakasi (Nairobi) and Nakuru.

The car made its African debut at Embakasi on 3rd November 1968 at the Nairobi Motor Club meeting and set a new lap record of 64 seconds.

This success prompted the Porsche Kenya agent Gordon C.R. Crow to use the car in his marketing, taking an advert out in the East African Standard newspaper.

The last meeting of the Kenyan 1968 season was at the Nakuru circuit and once again it proved to be successful with three first places, including a two driver race where Peter shared the car with Porsche agent Gordon Crow.

This prompted another newspaper advert.

My research has only uncovered one further meeting for Peter and the car, this being the first meeting of 1969 at Embakasi.

Nice Tim!

John

Kept the 'Zoll' plates all this time . . .

Not too much to add at the moment, mainly continued research, recent contact has put me in touch with the wife of the supplying agent so hopefully I might gain a little more background information.

Di Bowser (nee Crow), wife of the East African Agent at the time has kindly provided further archive material and confirmed that the photo (first photo) I had seen in a recent Classic Porsche magazine article of a car carrying the registration KGT 345 is my car, the registration being the Kenyan number allocated following the removal of the German Zoll plates.

The second photo Di provided me with was another shot of the car in the workshop; these are probably sometime in 1969 because the car is sharing workshop space with the Zasada East African Safari Rally car (car with bonnet up).

The other two photos are from newspaper cuttings which demonstrates the eclectic mix of cars that competed together!

(Thanks to Classic Porsche magazine editor Keith Seume and author of the recent Kenyan Memories article Peter Pocket for their help in putting me in touch with Di).

Fantastic story! One of my favorite threads her, thanks for sharing!
BTW: I was spending some time in Uganda a few years before I believe you found this car. But it never crossed my mind this was a place it was possible to go looking for cool cars! :eek:

Best, Radmund

Love the history! How's the car doing?

Still mainly research although currently assessing bodywork required; gearbox and engine have been broken down and I will try and post some 'detail' photos shortly.

The 1968 Sports Purposes document lists 'Unpolished aluminium rims' as part of the specification and the early photos of the car clearly show the unpainted wheels (see first photo); what we didn't know was what constituted 'unfinished' other than the absence of black paint.

Standard wheels receive machining/polishing that rounds the petals as shown on the standard deep 6 in the second photo.

The original wheels had received a couple of crudely applied layers of paint during their time in Uganda (although this probably helped to protect them) however the team at Canford Classics carefully removed this paint to reveal the bare state. We found that the 'unfinished' element was that the machining/polishing that the normal Fuchs receive was not undertaken as you can see in photos 3, 4 and 5. We believe that this more basic finish was then just anodised to give the Sports Purpose 'unfinished aluminium rim'.

That's a really cool detail on sports purpose 911's from period. Never saw it before. Will be interesting if others like Harvey have ever encountered it.

For clarification, all four wheels look like this?
Thanks

No only the 5.5" x 15", he bought some 6" x 15" either at the time of collection, or shortly after (within the first three months) and they were standard finish. From all the research we have done only 5.5's were available 'unfinished'

Tim - I'm fairly sure that deep sixes & 7R wheels were available in the 'raw' finish too - R3 (the third of the 4 911R prototypes) was equipped with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bantam

The 1968 Sports Purposes document lists 'Unpolished aluminium rims' as part of the specification and the early photos of the car clearly show the unpainted wheels (see first photo); what we didn't know was what constituted 'unfinished' other than the absence of black paint.

Standard wheels receive machining/polishing that rounds the petals as shown on the standard deep 6 in the second photo.

The original wheels had received a couple of crudely applied layers of paint during their time in Uganda (although this probably helped to protect them) however the team at Canford Classics carefully removed this paint to reveal the bare state. We found that the 'unfinished' element was that the machining/polishing that the normal Fuchs receive was not undertaken as you can see in photos 3, 4 and 5. We believe that this more basic finish was then just anodised to give the Sports Purpose 'unfinished aluminium rim'.

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I asked Frau Baer about the "unpolished" part in the sports purpose book and she said it was a bad translation as most of the parts books were translated by "secretaries looking at a book with no automotive experience" (her words...not mine).. It should say "unvarnished" (unpainted).
They were quickly polished and anodized but many of the early wheels weren't polished very well or not at all because of the time crunch....and the constant need to lower the cost.......
Anyway, that is what I was told......

I have also stripped a few and they weren't quite as nice a production wheels but I have never them as rough as the last photos......The last ones look as though they only had the first lathing of the polishing process....Were they anodized over the rough machining?
What are the dates? they should be before 8/68.....and "03"s

Anyway she said there was some complaints from the sales dept about the non painted wheels because they didn't look enough like the production wheels...and the whole reason for racing was to help sell cars...(otherwise all of the lightweight cars would have no paint)....she shrugged with a small smile, and said.... many slipped through anyway :)
In other words she wasn't going to go back and paint them after they were in the customers hands.
H

Sorry Harvey just seen your reply.

Can fully appreciate what Frau Baer said in terms of the translation; we have found a number of instances within the Sports Purpose document where the translation is rather literal.

Yes the wheels were just anodized over the basic finish, wheels are dated 5/68 but they are '04' part number (see photos below), however it looks like someone had a brief attempt to remove the '04'.

Great article in latest Classic Porsche!

What ever happened to Frau Baer?

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What ever happened to Frau Baer?

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I believe she past away Dave.... Harvey would know more....

cm

A great article on a fabulous car....look forward to seeing it in the flesh one day....

....and on seeing it done! :cool:

Congrats Tim

Not much to report in terms of work on the car although I am hopeful 2016 will see some major steps forward.

Continued with the research and had a great result when a letter to a magazine aimed at the British expat community resulted in contact being made by a gentleman called David Runyard. David told me that he remembered watching Peter Sargeantson and Gordon Crow competing in the car in the late '60's in Kenya and that somewhere within his 4000+ negative collection from his time in Africa there would hopefully be a few of interest, however, I would need to be patient whilst he sorted through them. Anyway good to his word David came back to me with some fantastic photos taken at the Nakuru circuit on the 1st December 1968 during the two driver race where Peter and Gordon claimed the win.

Peter took the first stint that commenced with a 'Le Mans' style start before coming into the pits to hand over to his friend Gordon Crow (East African Porsche agent who clearly goes for less formal race wear!), Gordon bringing the car home for the victory that was suitably celebrated in the paddock with a cold beer.

(Thanks again to David Runyard for the photographs).

Great pics. Thanks for sharing.

WOW!!!! How cool is THAT!!!!!

I love the size of the rear tires...

Thanks and cheers Tim,
cm

Love this car! :cool:

Fantastic find Tim, congrats.

Ya gotta love this shot...

The front wheels on the race car look more like 5.5s than 6s.
Are all of your wheels 6s? Do all of them have the same finish?
Great story...and photos. Thanks for posting.
My kinda of racing. :)
H

Harvey; i recall from the beginning of this thread that the build sheet shows front wheels are in fact 5 1/2 front with 6 rear as having been originally fitted.

Tim: I know you did a lot of legwork on the research of this car over the past few years and I agree, what a great result!

Very cool!

John

Cool pictures Tim, holy grail imo a swb 911 67/68 car which was used as intended all those yrs back.

Look forward to further updates on progress of your car

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flunder

Harvey; i recall from the beginning of this thread that the build sheet shows front wheels are in fact 5 1/2 front with 6 rear as having been originally fitted.

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That is what they look like to me......
H

This is the coolest thread ever.

Thanks for the comments.

The car actually had 'unfinished' 5.5" all round when collected from the factory as in the photo below, however, fairly early on (possibly even when he collected the car?) Peter obtained a pair of standard finish deep 6" (dated 6/68) that he ran on the rear in competition as in the photos posted.

Amazing photos from Kenya Tim!

I may have missed it but what date was the car delivered from the factory?

Hi Mikael

Peter and his wife Ann collected the car direct from the factory on or just after 11th July 1968 and drove it back to the UK.

great work Tim, amazing pictures

It is now July 2016; any progress on this wonderful project? Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raspy2point2

It is now July 2016; any progress on this wonderful project? Chris

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The shell is nearly ready for paint with final adjustments being made as parts are offered up. The biggest decision was whether to retain the flared rear arches it got sometime in the late '70's/early 80's or go back to how it came out of the factory; given that all the history I have unearthed is from its competition life in '68/'69 when it was still 'narrow', allied to the fact that I have the car's original 5.5" Sports Purpose 'unfinished' wheels, the decision was made to go back to original specification rather than second guess what wheels it would have run with its flared arches. Engine re-build is due to start soon whilst the transmission is nearly finished.

Good to see your shell almost complete I bet your pleased with the end result. Looking forward to see the car in paint

[QUOTE=Bantam;677960]As Rick said shows "how much times've changed".....these days they would be stood scrolling on a phone or tablet......or more likely they sadly just wouldn't be there!


So true, mostly the kids (and adults) with phones never look up anymore. Just think all the beautiful visuals above us like birds, trees, mountains and the blue sky.

Good choice on keeping the flairs original when delivered in 1968. Also keeping the 5.5 fuchs in their delivered finish will make this car look " SPORTS PURPOSE" Thanks for the update. Chris

Wonderful Tim.... I love this thread.

My aim with the project has always been to try and retain some patina and originality wherever possible, however, at each stage you are faced with dilemmas. I was keen that once completed the car still retained a feel for its history, Peter Sargeantson working at the wheel on race tracks in both the UK and Africa, so for example the gear knob whilst not perfect (and could easily be changed for a 'better' example) would be retained, it has surely been subject to some frantic gear changing and it would be a shame to lose that feel so that stays 'as is':

This is where it starts getting tricky, the bonnet crest had suffered under the African sun, particularly the orange bars that had dried out and were literally crumbling in front of my eyes, to fit 'as is' would have seen the enamel continue to fall out! (Note: I have noticed that in general the orange enamel bars tend to be less durable than the black....perhaps some reaction between the colour/enamel process?). Again I could have fitted a 'better' early badge but it wouldn't have been the one that had seen so much of the world so step forward Mike Birtwistle hear in the UK who has a great eye for detail and kindly agreed to take on a sympathetic restoration of the original bonnet crest; full restoration is one thing but to achieve what I was looking for in terms of "Originality v Durability" takes skill and self control! To say I am pleased with what Mike has achieved is an understatement........thank you Mike:

Looks great, Tim!

John

Thanks Tim.

I love what you are doing with your fantastic 911, you know that....

Regards
Mike

Canford Classics now have the shell in primer and parts being offered up again prior to paint.......whilst I got a little carried away on a Hardi fuel pump project!

Oh my, that looks pretty good.

Wonderful car and a ground breaking, well thought out approach to preservation.

Please keep the updates coming.

Progress......

Yum! :cool:

Looks Fantastic. On the home straight now..

Tease.....

More pictures please

Only photo I have at the moment.........just a trailer

Looking good Tim. The primer colour had me worried for a second there. Thought you'd gone for Gulf Orange!

Hi Tim, that's a nice car you have, I guess by now you have completed the restoration, may I ask what was the cars Kenyan registration?

If I'm correct, this is KGT 345.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...1&d=1400659928

Any chance to see this car during the next Le Mans Classic?
I like it and the way you have proceed this restoration :cool:

The picture of the car in a rally #325-- The wheels in back look like 6". as the outside rim is sticking out farther that the spokes. 5.5" is the opposite Chris

The picture of the car in a rally #325-- The wheels in back look like 6" or 7". as the outside rim is sticking out farther that the spokes. 5.5" is the opposite Chris

Chris - the photo in post #325 is actually circuit racing (yet to find any rally events in the car's history) and the wheel sizes were covered in post #320.....basically came with 'unfinished 5.5" all round from new whilst Peter also used a pair of standard finish deep 6" on the rear for some events. According to the Sports Purpose document 5.5" on the front with 6" on the rear was not a homologated combination, however, I don't think that would have stopped Peter!

Canford Classics have done a fantastic job refurbishing the original unfinished wheels; they had been painted more than once whilst the car was in Uganda so they had to be stripped, re-finished to match the 'unfinished' original condition and then anodised (fortunately we had access to an original 'unfinished' spare wheel that had not seen the road for reference):

I like the original body, as delivered look, above post # 346....cliff

Hi tim--Wheels look great. Unfinished against tangerine paint. Chris

Time for a bümpdate? . . .




.........................

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRanger

Time for a bümpdate? . . .




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Thought this was finished by Canford Classics a couple of months ago , not sure why Tim has,nt updated here , maybe he does not have it anymore

Correct.....and correct.

Yes Canford Classics completed a fantastic restoration keeping to the brief of retaining originality wherever possible, the car has since gone to an anonymous private collector in the UK so not much more I can add other than to thank all the people who helped me with advice, support and encouragement. Whilst sad to see it go the costs involved of such a restoration, allied to children reaching further education age, made it kind of inevitable that I would need to sell it. It is not all bad news though because the project has allowed me to get to know some great people who I now consider good friends whilst I am now able to indulge myself with both a 964 for use now, together with another '68 project that will start next year building on the knowledge I have acquired together with some interesting Sports Purpose parts.

So thanks again for all the help and last but not least thanks to the Early911S Registry and its contributors without whom it would not have been half the fun...... although if you had asked me eight plus years ago if I thought I would be studying logos on the top of bolts and screws I would have thought you had lost the plot!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bantam

Correct.....and correct.

Yes Canford Classics completed a fantastic restoration keeping to the brief of retaining originality wherever possible, the car has since gone to an anonymous private collector in the UK so not much more I can add other than to thank all the people who helped me with advice, support and encouragement. Whilst sad to see it go the costs involved of such a restoration, allied to children reaching further education age, made it kind of inevitable that I would need to sell it. It is not all bad news though because the project has allowed me to get to know some great people who I now consider good friends whilst I am now able to indulge myself with both a 964 for use now, together with another '68 project that will start next year building on the knowledge I have acquired together with some interesting Sports Purpose parts.

So thanks again for all the help and last but not least thanks to the Early911S Registry and its contributors without whom it would not have been half the fun...... although if you had asked me eight plus years ago if I thought I would be studying logos on the top of bolts and screws I would have thought you had lost the plot!

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Yes Tim , I know the feeling my Car has been on the go since 1993 and still not ready , engine has had bottom end done now , just top end and add to Gearbox and then into the car and get setup.Some years I spent thousands on it and some years its just been sitting , in fact most.. it even has a patina now on its 20 year old paint job.. good luck on your new 68 , thats what I have with the Group 2 Rallye Kit bits/

>......................

This thread was mentioned recently in another thread. Thought newer members would enjoy reading it.

..... to miss this thread!

To Peter: Thank you for pulling up the thread.

To Tim: A great thread, with everything that goes with it. Criminalistic perseverance, lots of technical facts, good forum exchange and humor (I particularly liked the story with the German salmon fishermen and the blonde "Fräulein" in the dirndl at Porsche!:)).
For me, the thread definitely belongs in the top ten, thank you very much!