Car litterally gives me a headache - with windows up and heater on: sleepy

The heat has always smelled a bit oily/exhausty...

On a trip to CA in Oct driving the Oregon coast - I felt very disoriented, to the point of passing out. Pulled over - aired the car out and sat for about 10 mins until I had my whits about me. From that point forward, when ever the heat is, I have fresh air open at the upper vents.

My uneducated diagnosis is CO poisening. The car has stainless heat exchangers from a leading manufacturer (name escapes me) and has been a problem since day one with them. First question: How best to determine which one is the culprit? (Disconnecting one at a time and driving around seems rather crude). And Second, if one is determined to be leaking, is it repairable or just need to be replaced?

As you can imagine....this is a HUGE problem with light, air cooled aircraft. Can't afford to pass out flying!

Any small airport or private plane supplier sells small CO testers...about the size of a credit card...that pilots keep in the cockpit. The ones 15 years ago had a small dime sized exposed tab that would turn black in the presence of CO. Technology has probably made them better and safer. Try googling aircraft and CO tester for results. Pretty cheap.

As for testing which side is contributing....block off hot air return from each independently and see which causes above tester to react...or react faster.

Good luck...and be safe!

CO poisoning will KILL YOU

Many, many GA crashes have resulted from a tiny crack in an exhaust system.

Do not drive the car until you get this fixed

CO testers ordered. Appreciate the replies.

CO has affinity for hemoglobin approximately 250x that of O2. Symptoms of mild intoxication exactly as you describe. Half life of carboxyhemoglobin on room air about 320 minutes but you can shorten this to 80 min by breathing oxygen. More severe cases of CO poisoning may require hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

Mike is absolutely right about CO and general aviation dangers. Periodically light aircraft makers discover flaws in their exhaust systems and heat exchangers. Last well popularized one I recall was FAA Service Bulletin for SAMA CH-2000 aircraft with one piece cabin heat shrouds. Several other manufacturers like Mooney and Beech previously had similar issues.

Once you isolate which heat exchanger is faulty, carefully inspect for cracks, sooting, or brownish discoloration which could pinpoint a leak. Also check your exhaust joints for leaks. Let us know what you find.

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Originally Posted by richemj

As you can imagine....this is a HUGE problem with light, air cooled aircraft. Can't afford to pass out flying!

Any small airport or private plane supplier sells small CO testers...about the size of a credit card...that pilots keep in the cockpit. The ones 15 years ago had a small dime sized exposed tab that would turn black in the presence of CO. Technology has probably made them better and safer. Try googling aircraft and CO tester for results. Pretty cheap.

As for testing which side is contributing....block off hot air return from each independently and see which causes above tester to react...or react faster.

Good luck...and be safe!

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I have one in my garage which I keep an eye on when running the car for short periods inside. A cheap and valuable addition...

This is an admit your own stupidity conclusion to this thread. Starting 6 years ago, when the car had a windows out bare metal respray, I opted for a fiberglass rear tail/bumbers/rockers to save weight and to lose the 73 rubber baby buggy bumpers. When the fiberglass piece was installed, the original rubber strip between the rear license plate panel didn't work - far too short. Thinking that I could easily clean any dirt which entered the engine, I merrily went without. Little did I know until recently that it prevented a lot more than dirt entering the engine compartment. After a quick lesson the other day on how heat exchangers work on my 914: fan pulls fresh air, which some of which is diverted through the exchangers, which then goes into the cabin, the bell went off. So with a gap of 3" between the lid and the license plate panel, exhaust was being sucked into the fan, through the exchangers and into the cabin. Gawd knows how many brain cells might have been saved if I had understood the basic mechanics of HEs and where they get their air.

Tonight, using the original rubber gasket as a template, I fashioned a much taller gasket to seal the area between the license plate panel and the hatch lid. Things should improve dramatically. Amazing how understanding the basic principals of an early car can actually be a life saver. I feel like such a moron - but ya don't know what ya don't know.

X2 I just noticed a bit of a headache after a trip and about the same time noticed that my lid to lic. panel gasket was flopping in the breeze. Didnt put them together .Thanks for the anecdote. S

I have done some experiments with a CO sensor in the 911. There are some surprisingly high numbers idling in the driveway during the initial warmup I have seen 90 ppm inside the targa with the heat off. hat is nearly 3X the OSHA 8 hr PEL. Once you are standing in the car breathing it it stays in your system as bfunke explained. The physiological effects are serious.

Testing at speed I see very little CO in the cabin. Of course, this is with the top out. I have not explored the track car with the windows up.

Definitely get the exhaust checked out as well as the license panel seal. A sport muffler can make the effect even worse given the proximity of the outlet pipes.

It never ceases to amaze me just how many cars on this board and others around the world are for sale with at least one of the two rear rubber seals missing. This always seems to occur on restored cars when the rebuilder must assume there cannot be two seals in roughly the same place. This at best is a nice indicator of 'if and how well a car has been restored' and at worst (to the unaware new driver) potentially dangerous. I just wonder if there were to be an unsuspecting fatality (or fatalities on a busy highway) through CO2 poisoning where the blame would lie, with the purchaser or the seller? Check your car for rear seals now!! Here is a car sold just last week with the same issues.
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At the Targa CA. before last I was in the middle of about 6 of us caught in bumper to bumper for about 45 min. go'n South on PCH to get to the Fort Hunter Liggett turn off..... Even with all the windows open and a mild sea breeze THAT was as close as I've come to passing out in a long time..... :(

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because you couldn't put the pedal to the metal-that's called anxiety

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Agreed....

Moreover.... I mentioned to the other guys after we turned off that the next time I get pulled over for excessive speed I'll tell the cop that 'It is literally KILLING me to go slow in this car........... :rolleyes:;)

2 rubber seals?! OK, I need close up pics of this. The 73 had one when purchased which was fit to a channel in the license plate panel.

Yet another

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ner-coupe.html

Regards
Mike

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Originally Posted by RickS

2 rubber seals?! OK, I need close up pics of this. The 73 had one when purchased which was fit to a channel in the license plate panel.

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I don't think I have a close up pic of my own car to show, so here is one from the parts catalog. I believe it's #25 & #26.

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Originally Posted by sithot

The last word: Headers.

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^^^ What Tom said. Unless you really need heat/defrosters.

Speaking of carbon monoxide poisoning, Olivier Beretta apparently was overcome in the #73 Corvette at LeMans just awhile ago.
No word yet on his blood check, but he reported feeling woozy and got out of the car. Hope it's not related to their AC/ventilation system.

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Originally Posted by Bullethead

^^^ What Tom said. Unless you really need heat/defrosters.

Speaking of carbon monoxide poisoning, Olivier Beretta apparently was overcome in the #73 Corvette at LeMans just awhile ago.
No word yet on his blood check, but he reported feeling woozy and got out of the car. Hope it's not related to their AC/ventilation system.

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If I was a real man, even in Washington state, I could probably handle no heat in the 30s and 40s, but since I am not real man enough - I will opt for double seals, a slow asphexia resulting in the demise of my cereberal cortex, yeilding a painful malingering carbon monoxide fueled death while watching Top Gear in my livingroom. Or I could take out the 911.

I've just ordered a new engine lid seal (# 901.512.901.00) and I need instructions on how to install it. My car has an original aluminum license panel but it doesn't appear to have any provision for the seal, or am I missing something?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...151290100-M136

TIA.

It is a tiny channel, you will have to take off the Lic. panel and slide it in from the side. I do not know if there is a upside down or right side up though. Go to a restoration shop that works on 911's. Chris

The aluminum panel on my 72 doesn't have the retainer for that seal either. I just have the one between the panel and the body.

Ed,

My aluminum panel has the retainer and the seal, but it also has such a splendid gap between the panel and the rear of the tub as render the outer seal useless. Is there an "official" seal for the gap between the license plate panel and the tub, or does one need to invent it?

Fortunately there is enough random air passing through the cockpit that I'm not worried about headaches, etc. but I do believe that I must be recycling air off the muffler back into the intakes and cooling fan.

thanks.

johnt

Yes John, that's the part #25 shown above.
Ed

Found a picture John!

Mine is just like that picture - no retainer for the seal (#26).