Sigla logo differences 65-73

[Schiefer]

Another one of these strange Südglas-Kristall windshields. 69S VIN 119300697: http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...sen-2016/page3

[Mario Lanza]

My 68L has sekurit D51 tinted windscreen and all other glass.

[911MRP]

Kinonglas Kristal windscreen from early seventies pictured below...

The E1 and E2 marking are Euro safety standard similar to DOT I believe. Someone from Europe will have to say when they mandated this safety certification. I have had 70-73 car without the E1 marking and I have never seen a short wheel base original windshield with a E1 marking. The 700 miles S probably can't be argued with and that is the first time I have seen the E1 on that year (I think). The heart shape is absolutely a late production. That little squiggly mark is not on a bunch of them either. I am not a glass expert as I can't get into knowing what the date numbers mean or I will go nuts with assigning glass windows to my resto cars.

I'm no expert on old windscreen manufacturer etchings either but decided to have a go at decoding and dating the pictured markings, as it is an early Porsche windscreen example...

Here is what is present that helps dating:

WHP is a Windscreen High Performance Laminated Safety Glass which is made by laminating two sheets of glass with a 0.76mm WHP PVB interlayer to give a 6.76mm laminated glass. This gives maximum resistance to penetration with high light transmission. Available in: 6.76mm Clear and Green

The DOT code (DOT number) is the letters “DOT” followed by a number that the Department of Transportation (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) assigns to the manufacturer of the glass. DOT glass manufacturer codes were assigned in 1968 as stated in an earlier post. There were no manufacturer codes in the windscreen logo prior to that as far as I know. If there is a DOT code on cars built prior to circa Sept 68 for model year 69 that almost certainly identifies the glass as replacement.

Dot 31 in the example pictured does not appear in the commonly found table of makers (presumably DOT 31 code was consolidated /discontinued as a result of the various acquisitions and mergers of Kinon into vegla and Saint Gorbain) However from other marking the maker wa obviously Kinonglas N Kinon, Aachen, Germany who were instrumental in some major innovations in glass. Founder of Kinon was first producer of laminated glass in Germany although in 1905, John C. Wood, a British inventor, came up with the idea of laminating a layer of celluloid (an early plastic) between two sheets of glass, reasoning that the celluloid would hold the shards of glass together and prevent some of the fatalities and injuries. Other pioneers in France used it in automobiles.

Some history from www: "KINON is part of a long history, over 130 years ago founded in 1871, in Aachen Germany, the company started producing under the name “Glass – and mirror manufacturer, N. Kinon “. Already in 1913 the production of laminated glass for the automotive sector began. In 1938 it became the production of special laminated glass, safety glasses and glass solutions. In 1952 the family owned company became part of the United VEGLA Glass Works Ltd., today’s Saint-Gobain Group and now operates under KINON GmbH with 190 employees." (Worth noting Sekurit is also part of Saint-Gobain Group)

Kristal F/F Hi could be the Kinonglas brand / trademark name (but I'm not certain) ?

British Standards Institute* BS 857 and the BSI "Kite Mark" (not heart) os very prominant. BSI are the UK National Standards Body and were the world’s first national standards body; it remains a leading global standards maker. BS 857:1967 is a currently in-use British Standard specification for flat or curved safety glasses (toughened or laminated) it specifies the mechanical, safety, impact and optical requirements as well as sampling and test methods. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_857

The AS number stands for American Standard, and is “AS” (or “American Standard”) followed by a number indicating the position in which the glass may be used, based on its optical quality. AS1 is the clearest glass (at least 70% light transmission), is laminated, and can be used anywhere in a motor vehicle (typically just the windshield).

The M number is a model number for the piece of glass, which identifies the type of construction. The M number is unique to the manufacturer. It identifies the glass construction, including the color and thickness. An M number may be used by multiple part numbers.

What is missing from this windscreen etching is also important for dating purposes:

The example pictured predates 1981 because regulation R43 was published in 1981 by the United Nations in Geneva. UNECE Reg. 43 is an UNECE standard for safety glass used in road vehicles. Its aim was to replace the different standards existing in Europe. Since then, thirty-two countries have signed the Agreement. Regulation R43 is used for all automotive safety glazing used in vehicles with the exception of security glazing. It concerns laminated and tempered glass.

Within Europe, two systems of type approval have been in existence for over 20 years. One is based around EC Directives and provides for the approval of whole vehicles, vehicle systems, and separate components. The other is based around United Nations (UN) Regulations (formerly known as UNECE Regulations) and provides for approval of vehicle systems and separate components, but not whole vehicles.

The windscreen example photographed apparently preceded the date of introduction E code that is used for cars in European countries, and indicates the country that certified the windshield. It is a circle with the capital letter E followed by a number. The codes are assigned by the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. While there are many countries nowadays, back in 1971 at the time this book was being published there were just the a few (suggesting any screen with country e code not on this list is later or replacement after 71)

The comment about starting to be adopted seems reelvant in dating context as it suggests a windscreen like to one pictured without an "e Mark" but made by a long established German glass manufacturer such as Kinon, is relatively early before things were enforced.

Conclusion:
- with BSI Kite Mark and BSI standard for vehicle safety glass 857 it is later than 67
- in fact with it having a DOT31 mark it is probably MY 69 or beyond
- must be from before 81 as there is no R43 marking
- the absence of a Federal republic of Germany type approval "E1 Mark" for a windscreen that was definitely made by Kinon in Aachen Germany
- the extract above says E # type approval numbers were starting to be adopted around the book was published which according to front page was in 1971 ( translated to English in 72)
- the UK joined the European "common market" on 1st January 1973 so this too might explain why it had not yet got "E1 mark"
- The windscreen in question is England/British market given local BSI kite-mark quality symbol along with the local British Standard 857 for vehicle safety glass number is etched on it although I'm pretty sure cars for other regions got kitemark glass *

Taking this all this stuff together suggests likely windscreen dates +/- 1972/3 era.

At least that's what the particular combination of windshield markings present / missing seem to point towards. Can't be certain of my deduction from 40 plus year old markings but investigation of marks is probably better than relying on memory as the 700 mile that was in fact " argued with" by folks who knew some of the story shows replaceable fragile things get damaged and changed even in low mileage exemplars.

Didn't find any information to explain the "squiggly" wave symbol and D# so far, but maybe somone more knowledgable on vehicle safety glass can explain what these symbols mean?

For those needing a cure for insomnia ther is lots of detail here albeit later than early S cars but maybe it informs in later replacement windscreens. Timing of seems to be roughly around the Maastricht treaty and European experiment's push forward to be more joined up at that time:
http://www.glassforeurope.com/images...28805_file.pdf

Hopefully these various national, European and American standards dates from my experiment help others triangulate on likley date of a windscreen and being authentic of type for year of production ...even if very unlikely to be yet the actual original survivor some 45 years on even for 700 milers.


Steve

*note: The British market 911 cars up to 1973 model year had to meet British BS AU standards that at the time operated in parallel to the "E Mark" type approval standards becoming adopted. For example British market cars for model year 73 ( others years too probably) have a separate small BS AU plate riveted on the front slam panel just above the aluminium identification plate as evidence of meeting the relevant mid 60s British standard for seatbelt anchor points.

[911MRP]

In summary from the little investigation above, I think I've learned some "rules of thumb" that might help others who might interested in dating early 911 safety glass production dates. I'll summarise them here in this separate "reference" checklist for others to build upon and use if interested:

- BSI vehicle safety glass standard 857 was introduced in the UK in 1967 so earlier build-date cars with a windscreen glass BS857 marking / related BSI Kite Mark (kind of heart shape) were likley replaced
- DoT glass manufacturer # code was introduced (what month ?) in 1968 so earlier production-date cars with a DOT # code etched on their windscreens were likely replaced
- by 1971 (or 72) only thirteen E# country "type approval"codes had been assigned:
so any longhood cars with code on glass beyond that E1-13 country type approval range need a careful scrutiny glass etched e # greater than E13 is claimed to be original
- it appears from gaps in www DOT glass manufacturer listing ( as published on www) that some of the DOT codes have been retired presumably due to merger acquisition acquisition consolidating the automotive glazing market http://www.carwindshields.info/dot_db. Case in point from my previous investigation, DOT 31 once existed as shown in photo,on previous post. Evidently number was company Kinon in Aachen Germany but presumably it is now just part of DOT27 SEKURIT SAINT-GOBAIN DEUTSCHLAND GMBH? Similarly for Sigla. As far as I can see Sigla is no longer a separate entry under this current DOT list either? Presumably Sigla Germany if products with that marking are still availabl, the DOT etched # would use one of FLACHGLAS AG DOT codes.? Again I assume this is due to industry economies of scale consolidation.
- UNECE Reg. 43 is a standard for safety glass used in road vehicles adopted from around 1981 therefore long-hood cars with glass having that etching on windscreen or other glass are evidently late replacement.

This rule of thumb "checklist" is not complete or correct yet. Would be pleased to have builds from folks who might know better. I suggest in addition to continuing fantastic photo input showing various glass examples, knowledgable folks also chime in on known changes to windshield etched markings-- particularly markings linked to standard body documentation giving notable points the evolution of these automotive safety glass standards.

When safety standards change the required windshield markings follow. Further datapoints or clarifications from folks to the initial "reference checklist" that I've typed in blue (above) ought to help confirm fallible memories on some 40 or 50 year old old glass being original or at least replacement back in the day -- should that be important thing to current owner.

I say this because my still quite young everyday runabout car had its windshield glass replaced during my ownership but I had completely forgotton that fact until, I saw the insurance renewal invitation with a comment on windshield replacement claim arrived this week. Our memories can be fallible about glass and other consumables -- these things can and do get pitted or easily busted.

If I'm deviating from OP Sigla theme, maybe this last post should be moved to a new thread by the Moderators?

Hope this starter point of view on the European end helps and welcome improvements. In particular if anyone in America has old lists of DOT codes as they were in longhood period rather than the very latest snapshot evolving list published following many corporate /glass brand/ plant ownership changes. Contemporary DOT lists with manufacturer name and plant might help from around 69.

Steve

[LongRanger]

. . . My two SWB´s have different Sigla logos and numbers/letters on the windscreen. One looks to be original, the other I´m not so sure about.

Is it possible to interpret the numbers/letters on these screens to determine what year they are from?

The "Made in West Germany" obviously disappeared for a while looking at the pic of the 700 mile S, but when? The last picture was recently posted in the RS-thread and is supposed to be the original glass from a 73 RST. This screen is marked Made in Germany.

Some pictures to show differences:

My late ´66 production 67S:





My restored april ´67 production 67S. Is this a replacement screen?? Please comment/confirm.



The mint Risinger 67S:



Olive 68 restored by CPR:



The 700 mile S, photo borrowed from Cornpanzer:



73 RST posted by forum member bigspann:



Also for comparison what seems to be available at the moment from Stoddard and Sierra Madre:

Stoddard:



Sierra Madre Collection:





Comments and pictures of original windscreens would be appreciated . . .

So would pics!




Sorry, Radmund --- but can you re-post your pics?




..............

[Schiefer]

Hi Rick, will do.
Looks like I will have to update more threads than just this one...

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ing-our-forums

[LongRanger]

I know-I know --- it's a pain . . .

. . . but where else could we ever see/share/discuss stuff like this?


Anyway --- thanks, Radmund . . .



. . . maybe toss in a few pics of your cars --- while you're at it?

[Frank Beck]

Adding yet another “Made In West Germany” version.

[fourteenten]

Adding another one, most likely the original wind screen in my third series RS. Where is the Porsche sign?

Cees

[beh911]

Adding another one, most likely the original wind screen in my third series RS. Where is the Porsche sign?

Cees

Left it off due to weight maybe? Is yours a homologation lightweight example?

I crack myself up