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Thread: 67 rear end negative camber prob...

  1. #1

    67 rear end negative camber prob...

    My 67 is quite stock and sits low with tired torsions. It is a nice profile and it has a few cornering advantages.

    However, I am wanting to upgrade my cars stock chrome steel 4.5 X 15 wheel and tire combo. Before I do so...I would like to get my cars rear end much closer to 1 degree of neg camber.

    It is probable that my car will require new torsions and shocks. I am prepared for the larger ticket items, but not knowledgeable as to correcting the camber problem. I would like to do this without elevating the car to US bumper height requirements.

    Are there any options that you guys can recommend? I would like to maintain the cars very stock condition and keep the lower profile.

    But, performance is paramount over the cars original status.

    Thanks in advance for you experience and thoughts. Shawn
    67 coupe roller
    99 M96 2.5 litre
    early911s reg 447
    R Gruppe 399

  2. #2
    Goldmember ttweed's Avatar
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    Shawn-

    In all likelihood, your bushings in the rear are a big part of the problem. I don't think they make a Neatrix replacement for the SWB cars, and your alternative is to buy entire new spring plate assemblies from the factory (mucho $$$).

    Like you, performance was foremost for me over originality, so I bought the adjustable spring plates from Swayaway for the SWB and installed them with the plastic bushings. This also gives you the added bonus of more easily adjusting the rear ride height for corner balancing.

    You might as well upgrade to 21/26 torsion bars "while you're in there".

    TT
    Tom Tweed
    Early S Registry #257
    R Gruppe #232
    Rennlist Founding Member #990416-1164
    PCA National DE Instructor
    Read my surf novel!

  3. #3

    thanks TT...

    for your reply. I was hoping to hear from you on this. Any other "while your in there" suggestions? I need to address the shocks as well.

    Shawn.
    67 coupe roller
    99 M96 2.5 litre
    early911s reg 447
    R Gruppe 399

  4. #4
    Shawn,
    I recently rebuilt the rear suspension on my 67. When I separated the spring plate from the trailing arm, the mating surfaces were so full scale and crude that the alignment adjusting bolts were not able to make the full range of adjustments. So, clean these mating surfaces and check your adjusting bolt eccentrics and slots and make sure they are'nt worn out. I have my car lowered to the point where the top of the rear tire is flush with the fender opening (25" diam tire) with camber adj maxed out, I have 1 1/2 neg camber. I used Koni's with no complaints, but have nothing to compare to. I also used aftermarket plastic bushings on stock spring plates. I used alot of silicon grease but still have creaking going on back there especially in cold weather. Ride is definitely harsher over stock rubber bushings but not objectionally so.

    Wolfgang

  5. #5
    Goldmember ttweed's Avatar
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    Re: thanks TT...

    Originally posted by Shawn
    Any other "while your in there" suggestions? I need to address the shocks as well.
    Buy new Konis from Jason or Chuck and you'll be set on the shocks (except for the pain in your wallet).

    Remember that as your T-bars took a set over the years and the bushings deformed. the rear end sagged, the chassis lowered, and your wheels took on more negative camber. Replacing the bushings will help that and all the t-bars may need is re-indexing for the right ride height. If they aren't cracked and the splines are in good shape, you can probably re-use them, if you don't want to drop the $4-600 on new bars.

    As Wolf said, if you can clean up the spring plates and your camber eccentrics aren't worn out, you could even re-use your stock ones by fitting plastic bushings. These will have to be turned on a lathe for proper fit, though, and you won't have the advantage of easy adjustment of final ride height for corner balancing.

    While you're in there, I would go ahead and get one of the 18mm rear ARBs from the '74-77 911S and fit that with new plastic bushings (heavy on the silicon grease with those, too, per Wolf's note), and get either a front 18mm ARB from the '76-78 Turbos, or buy an 19mm adjustable bar and set it on full soft to start. I have found both the stock bars used for $75 each at recyclers and swap meets, or the Weltmeister adjustable is around $200, with the advantage that you can tune your handling better.

    Then get a good alignment and some 7" Fuchs with 205/50-15 Falken Azenis and you'll be ready to rock (after you roll the fender lips.)

    My '67S with this setup won the indexed TTOD at the last PCA-SDR autox I attended. They are very potent little weapons when set up well. Of course, Racea911 will now rail on about the inherent "unfairness" of the index we use, and the advantage it gives to stock cars, but the '67 beat a lot of newer Porsches on raw time as well.

    TT
    Tom Tweed
    Early S Registry #257
    R Gruppe #232
    Rennlist Founding Member #990416-1164
    PCA National DE Instructor
    Read my surf novel!

  6. #6
    Goldmember ttweed's Avatar
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    Brass bushings?

    Just read this thread on the PP board and was wondering if Chuck had any plans to make any of these new bushings for the very early cars?

    TT
    Tom Tweed
    Early S Registry #257
    R Gruppe #232
    Rennlist Founding Member #990416-1164
    PCA National DE Instructor
    Read my surf novel!

  7. #7

    thanks guys...

    It is still amazing to me how this little pc and phone line allows contact with so many wonderful and helpfull folks out there. You guys are right on the money, I only wish that this little town had a fraction of the talent and wisdom accesable through this registry board. Oh, and a race track would be nice also.

    Got a Monday AM rack appointment to do a little recon on the rear end. Got some Koni's on the way up here as well. I haven't decided on torsions as yet...still going back and forth over the options. Hollow lightwieghts or just sway away bars offered by Pelican. I sort of hope to find that I need new (adjustable) spring plates, but will try really hard to remain economicaly grounded.

    Wolfey reminded me of the wallet factor (we will inspect the stock equip prior to ordering adjustable plates) and TT got me all hotblooded until he recommended rolling my fenders. Yikes, not there yet. Then Soterik got me going on making 7" 911R wheels by splitting and widening a rear set of 6" fuchs.

    My wallet just ran away and hid somewere. Regardless, I will follow the way of the early S registry members and use (as much as possible) what the car came with. That is, until driver skills grow to know better. You guys rock. Shawn.
    67 coupe roller
    99 M96 2.5 litre
    early911s reg 447
    R Gruppe 399

  8. #8

    thanks for the links TT

    I did not review the handicap...er..sorry the index results with my calculator as yet. Mostly, since I could not get past George Taylors 912 times and resulting index.

    Tom. (BTW I'm a big time 912/356SC fan) What is he running in that light weight?

    How do you folks set the "curve" there anyway? Shawn.
    67 coupe roller
    99 M96 2.5 litre
    early911s reg 447
    R Gruppe 399

  9. #9
    Goldmember ttweed's Avatar
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    Re: thanks for the links TT

    Originally posted by Shawn
    I did not review the handicap...er..sorry the index results with my calculator as yet. Mostly, since I could not get past George Taylors 912 times and resulting index.

    Tom. (BTW I'm a big time 912/356SC fan) What is he running in that light weight?

    How do you folks set the "curve" there anyway?
    Shawn-
    See this link for an explanation of the "Bench Racer's Index" or BRI as we call it (or the "BS"I, as Curt would call it.) I helped instigate and advocate for the idea, based on the same premise as the SCCA PAX index, and gathered the data from several years worth of local events to establish the handicaps for the classes. Of course it is totally unofficial and carries no weight in the year-end awards or anything, it is just something for the drivers to "bench race" with and argue about.

    George Taylor is my surf bro and a big woodie fan (he has been restoring a '49 Ford woodie for the last 12 years or so). I got him into Porsches by lending him my '66 S-spec car at an autox about 5 years ago. He was hooked.

    A year or two later, he found his 912 parked under a tree in some friend's yard in La Jolla where it had been for 5-10 years or so after developing an engine knock. He paid $500 for it. It has a stock 1600cc 90 HP motor in it. It turned out that the engine knock was because someone had put some long-nosed plugs into it that were hitting the top of the pistons. After changing those out, some cleaning and tuning, addressing some oil leaks, it ran fine, and he started charging the local track events, winning his class the first year.

    Of course he has continued to improve the car and he is a natural at car handling, so he has started dominating his class, at big track time trials and autox, and by now is totally upside down on his investment in the car, like most of us, regardless of the original low purchase price.

    TT
    Tom Tweed
    Early S Registry #257
    R Gruppe #232
    Rennlist Founding Member #990416-1164
    PCA National DE Instructor
    Read my surf novel!

  10. #10
    There is a Tech article on this site about SWB bushing
    Nick Moss - Early 911S #476 - RGruppe #318 - early911.co.uk

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