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Thread: Value Added Upgrades

  1. #1

    Value Added Upgrades

    Ok, so with the '67 coming home I find myself in a dilema. Since my car is not an "S" I don't feel it has that great of value, perhaps in another 20 years that may change. As I partake on improving the car should I stick to period correct suspension and engine mods, say what may have been done to the car thru the early 70's? Or should I embrace what can be done with today's technology. I want to leave the body stock, but tweak the engine and suspension, and perhaps give the interior a bit racier feel.

    I know I could drop in a larger engine, but something about keeping the 2.0 and making it better makes sense.

    I've checked out the RGruppe site and while they have some beautiful cars, I can't say that I want a replica or clone of a factory racer. But will changing things that will ultimately be difficult to change back destroy all value or are these seen as upgrades?

    Any insight and thought is appreciated. AJ
    1967 911

  2. #2
    Senior Member Homemade 911's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    China Lake - Third Rock From The Sun
    Hey, AJ...
    When I built the "Homemade 911" (from scratch - out of a dead 912) I gave this exact same issue a lot of thought:

    The best answer I have is this:
    "if the intended mod is something that existed in that (relative) time frame, and it bolts on...then it's fair game"

    What I would do in your situation is consider mods that enhance both drivability and handling...

    To wit:
    (in no particular order of importance)
    - upgrade shocks (bilsteins or konis) I'm a Bilstein fan myself...
    - think about running a more modern tire (some sort of 50-55 series that would fit on either steel wheels, or an early set of 6x15 Fuchs) NOTE; if you go with newer technology tires, this will allow you to lower the car a little...this will help overall handling.
    - Slightly thicker torsion bars front and rear (if this is a daily driver/street car, I wouldn't go too much thicker over stock)
    - increase "reliability index" on the 2.0 liter (which is a damn fine engine) by installing things like:a permatune CD (or equivalent) that make keeping the engine tuned up that much easier...

    - Interior: consider a MOMO "Prototipo" steering wheel...little pricey, but perfect for that "vintage race feel". I have one, just love it. Also consider a couple of good, grippy street/race seats. There's a bunch of combination street/race seats out there that would work well in the car and not look too "out of place". I use an older pair of MOMO "Rookies", which would be too uncomfortable for the street - great track seats though...also, if you do new seats, get a harness bar (or a four pt. rollbar) and some harnesses...nothing feels more "race car" than strapping into the same harness setup we use on the track...again, there's a bunch of different setups available. I use SABELT 5pts. I've heard good things about SCHROTH street/track setups.

    These are just some ideas to help you get started down a good path. These things (together or separate) will help create a fun, narrow body early 2.0 911 that you won't want to get out of...

    Grass Valley, Eh? I've got family in Nevada City...I'm in the area every so often.

    Hope this helps...
    Thom Kuby

  3. #3



    I just took a look through the search engine and saw your 911, very nice. I've autcrossed up in Northern CA (Sacramento) and took my local Championship in 2001 in a 1986 MR2. Part of me would love to build my car to compete in Autocross as well as some road racing and still be a weekend cruiser. You've given me some good ideas, and the next time you're up north shoot me a message. thanks AJ
    1967 911

  4. #4
    Do to the car what you want to have.

    To make money use a good index mutual fund, your house and selected improvements, and buy rental properties.

    These cars are just not rare enough to go up that much AND... if gaoline is eliminated (because of pollution), hard to find, or very expensive (OPEC, reserves running out, etc.) what will your car be worth then?

    That could easily happen in 20 years.

  5. #5
    Goldmember ttweed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    La Jolla, CA
    I agree with Thom, and strangely enough, I also have family in Nevada City and have been visiting the Grass Valley area since about 1965, when my brother first attended the John Woolman School there.

    I was faced with the same question with my '67S, but even more constrained by the desire to maintain originality somewhat with just bolt-on mods. I have limited my improvements to an electronic ignition, adjustable spring plates, Turbo tie-rods, 6 & 7" Fuchs with modern tires, 21mmF and 26mmR torsion bars, 18mm anti-roll bars F&R, new Koni adjustable shocks, a Dino steering wheel and semi-period correct racing bucket seats. With a competition alignment and slightly lowered w/ bump steer kit, the car is a joy to drive, still very streetable, and it is currently leading the G-Street Stock class in our PCA region autox series.

    Tom Tweed
    Early S Registry #257
    R Gruppe #232
    Rennlist Founding Member #990416-1164
    PCA National DE Instructor
    Read my surf novel!

  6. #6
    Jared Rundell - Registered User JCR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Birmingham, MI
    I love the period feel of my pretty much stock '73. Are there better handling cars out there? Absolutely. Are they as much fun to drive sanely on the street? Doubt it.

    My 356 was a more extreme example of old car fun. I could whip it around a turn, at perfectly legal speeds, and get that "on the edge" feel. Had to hold on tight to the wheel with the modest Gs pulling me out of the flat seats. Lot's of fun - lot's of drama, without fear of tickets/jail.

    Unless you are tracking or AXing, I agree with the -keep the mods period correct- route. But a little tire slip here and there makes for a fun ride and keeps things sane.
    '73 911S #0793
    '69 912_ #0602
    Early S #0454
    RGruppe #0391

  7. #7

    These guys are the best...

    resource for your question. I too have a non S 67. I strongly disagree with your (and Bruce Andersons) opinion of value regarding the non S 67 coupes...of course I would.

    Originally posted by JCR
    Unless you are tracking or AXing, I agree with the -keep the mods period correct- route. But a little tire slip here and there makes for a fun ride and keeps things sane.
    Jared makes a good point and I agree. However, I have allready installed half of the items from TT's shopping list above.

    I'm not a bit sorry. Well, my wallet is.

    67 coupe roller
    99 M96 2.5 litre
    early911s reg 447
    R Gruppe 399

  8. #8
    Originally posted by RandyWebb
    Do to the car what you want to have.

    To make money use a good index mutual fund, your house and selected improvements, and buy rental properties.

    These cars are just not rare enough to go up that much AND... if gaoline is eliminated (because of pollution), hard to find, or very expensive (OPEC, reserves running out, etc.) what will your car be worth then?

    That could easily happen in 20 years.
    True enough. It's a fact. Spend what you can on your hobby and sock the rest away for a rainy day.
    These are the lousiest investments on the planet. The majority of us here are but rank amateurs when it comes to the "real" game.
    Do it because you love it or it gives you great satisfaction but don't get into it expecting any kind of double-digit return.
    As my Dad used to say: Discount what you hear by a good margin when somebody tells you how much money he or she is capable of making. You know? He was right.
    I've smelled a lot of that BS in my day and will be the first to admit that I've broken even at best on my greatest sales. However, nobody can take away the satisfaction, aggravation and memories of my times with whatever "wheeled" thing it was that I was smitten with at the time.

    Listen to your heart and above all, have fun because the ride is pretty damned short.

    May all of you live to be 99 and I am the last person to shake your hand at your trial for sexual misdeeds!

    Early S Registry #235
    rgruppe #111

  9. #9

    Mod's to a 67 911

    Before this thread gets redirected, which this board has a tendency to do, I will add my 2 pfennig.
    I have a 67 911 which I have restored, and I was also interested in staying period correct, but I wanted to bring up the performance. So I feel more qualified than most of the people on this boartd to make some suggestions. Here is what I did:
    1) Engine - Rebuilt the original 2.0 normal engine to bone stock S spec's (well not excatly - I also had the heads ported, polished and bench flowed for an extra $1000). Since your 67 normale came with Weber IDA 40's, you have the perfect induction system already. However, you will need a larger pair of intake manifolds. Get them at PMO, or have yours ported out. Only other thing you need is a new distributor. Try to find a good used. Otherwise you are looking at $800+ for a new one.
    2) Front Suspension - I bought an entire 911SC front suspension on EBay for $800 2 years ago, and it bolted right on. It has Bilsteins in front and S alloy calipers. It's easier and cheaper to go out and buy an entire front suspension in good condition and bolt it right on rather than try to retro-fit vented disc brakes, new struts etc. on the early 2.0 set-up.
    You can even go with a nice 69-73 911T front suspension since all early 911's had M calipers and vented discs in front by 1969. Even luckier if you score a pair of S alloy calipers to go with it.
    3) As for seats and seatbelts, I found a nice pair of early 911 headrolls on EBay 2 years ago. Since the SWB seats up to 1968 had no headrests, it's critical that you buy something to protect yourself and your passenger from a rearend whiplash. Also, almost all of the SWB's came only with lap belts. I picked up 2 sets of original 3 point seatbelts. Forget how much it costs: Get rid of the lapbelts immediately. Originality is one thing. Safety is another. If you want originality, I suggest that you do what I did. Otherwise, skip the authenticity and buy the safest seats and belts you can get.
    4) Lastly, get rid of your 4.5 wheels - even if they are Fuchs. If they are Fuchs, go sell them to the nuts that are willing to pay $3,000 for a wheel that back in the day critics were complaining was too thin - and that was back when wheel sizes were a seconday thought by sportscar manufacturers!!!
    I ended up buying a set of deep 6's for about half that. Pocket the money and put it toward the rebuild - or a nice set of Cibie Frogeye rally lights! If you only have the steel wheels, sell them on EBay and get a good set of 6j x15 Fuchs - or a set of cookie cutters if you don't have alot of money to work with.
    I am very happy with what I did, even though I am in the car for way more than what the vultures on this board would value it at.
    Or I should say, old hens...
    Take a look at SWB prices in Europe. They are jumping. Euro$20 ,000 and up for a good non 911S SWB coupe, and that's US$25,000 boys and girls. I have had my share of 1967-73 911's, and there is something about the SWB's that are more retro and fun. Can't beat the gauges either.

  10. #10
    gruen911, can you provide a little more detail on retrofitting the early car with 3 point belts? What belts did you use? Does the shoulder belt attach at the rear quarter or on the B pillar? Thanks

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