Werks 911 Rally cars 1965 - 1972

[HughH]

Here is a photo of Gunther Klass and Rolf Wutherich at the 1966 Deutschland rally
They won it in car #4 and Klass was European rally champion in 1966.

It is hard to read but i believe that car is S-WX 449, the same car as they drove in the 1966 Monte Carlo (car #131, 17th OA), the 1966 Coupe de Alps (car #90) ,and the 1966 tour de Course (car #89, 10th).

he was also 2nd in the 1966 VI Rallye dei Fiori but i don't have a record of what car (apart from being a 911), the 1966 Geneva rally (again a 911)


As a matter of trivia Rolf Wutherich was James Dean's mechanic and in the 550 with him on that fateful day.

[oscillon]

Thanks for the post and info. It would be a great picture minus all the ownership overwrite.

I particularly sought that badge because it was not only a 911 that took 1st, but also the connection to Wutherich. Who annecdotally also stabbed his wife numerous times and spent a few years in a mental hospital before himself dying in a fatal car crash. Sad really, the Dean incident seemed to haunt him.

Here is a photo of Gunther Klass and Rolf Wutherich at the 1966 Deutschland rally
They won it in car #4 and Klass was European rally champion in 1966.

It is hard to read but i believe that car is S-WX 449, the same car as they drove in the 1966 Monte Carlo (car #131, 17th OA), the 1966 Coupe de Alps (car #90) ,and the 1966 tour de Course (car #89, 10th).

he was also 2nd in the 1966 VI Rallye dei Fiori but i don't have a record of what car (apart from being a 911), the 1966 Geneva rally (again a 911)


As a matter of trivia Rolf Wutherich was James Dean's mechanic and in the 550 with him on that fateful day.

[peekaboo]

HughH ,

I wonder if any of these Prototype 1967 - on body numbers correspond to any of the chassis numbers used for rallying , that your looking for/at ? :

(Supplied by ST Man . Thank you by the way , this was very interesting) :

Body No Year Model Chassis Number Number Produced
320-001 1967 911 S (Versuch) 1 of 9
320-002 1967 911 S (Versuch) 2 of 9
320-003 1967 911 S (Versuch) 3 of 9
320-004 1967 911 S (Versuch) 4 of 9
320-005 1967 911 S (Versuch) 5 of 9
320-006 1967 911 S (Versuch) 6 of 9
320-007 1967 911 S (Versuch) 7 of 9
320-008 1967 911 S (Versuch) 8 of 9
320-009 1967 911 S (Versuch) 9 of 9
320-010 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300001 (?) 1 of 2
320-011 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300002 1 of 2
320-012
320-013
320-014
320-015
320-016
320-017
320-018
320-019
320-020 1967 Coupe Viersitzer 1 of 1 (4 door ?)

[mhhm]

More London-Sydney info.

Hugh, I chased up my mate and he has provided some details on his ownership.
I thought you might be interested and the info will add to your fantastic database.

Yes, it was the green car...hiding in the panel shop.

( not shouting ) but READ THE ATTACHED LINK (carsonline)..it has articles/photos/spec AND NUMBERS for the car.

Here is an edited version of Sean's reply.

"My Porsche was the Edgar Hermann one, engine No. was 908058, I had my only bingle ever in it in
1984 when a dopey woman made a right turn against two lanes of traffic at South Road in Drouin, I
was in the left lane slightly behind a Toyota Crown, when suddenly just after the lights changed, she
appeared directly in front of me - I was probably doing around 10-15 mph. Some slight consolation
when the cops charged her with failing to give way, of which she was duly convicted. Didn't do much
for the car though. I sold it to a mate of mine, John Armitage, who was going to do it up and get it
back into London to Sydney trim, however John became ill shortly after buying the car, and I heard it
spent a fair amount of time in a panel beater's somewhere, just hiding in a corner.

I think Phil Bernadou bought it and ended up returning it to London to Sydney specs, however he had
to have the roll cage/kangaroo cage made up from drawings and pictures, as the original/s were
scrapped, although I think the Reg Mort (who had/s the Sazada car) would probably still have the
cage in his shed, I tied to get him to sell it to me in the late 1970s, but he wouldn't part with it.
There is a pretty detailed account of the car on the internet check this link out."

(Phil Bernadou was obviously selling the car at this time..hence the advert)

http://carsonline.com.au/bernadou.html

Hope this adds to the interest
Cheers
Bob

[HughH]

HughH ,

I wonder if any of these Prototype 1967 - on body numbers correspond to any of the chassis numbers used for rallying , that your looking for/at ? :

(Supplied by ST Man . Thank you by the way , this was very interesting) :

Body No Year Model Chassis Number Number Produced
320-001 1967 911 S (Versuch) 1 of 9
320-002 1967 911 S (Versuch) 2 of 9
320-003 1967 911 S (Versuch) 3 of 9
320-004 1967 911 S (Versuch) 4 of 9
320-005 1967 911 S (Versuch) 5 of 9
320-006 1967 911 S (Versuch) 6 of 9
320-007 1967 911 S (Versuch) 7 of 9
320-008 1967 911 S (Versuch) 8 of 9
320-009 1967 911 S (Versuch) 9 of 9
320-010 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300001 (?) 1 of 2
320-011 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300002 1 of 2
320-012
320-013
320-014
320-015
320-016
320-017
320-018
320-019
320-020 1967 Coupe Viersitzer 1 of 1 (4 door ?)

Peekaboo

i thought about that but dont think it would be the case (however I dont know)

these numbers seem to have been used for special prototypes etc and IF they were later renumbered would have likely had very low numbers on them like Leon's one in SA or the one now discovered in the UK or would have run the numbers listed (some le mans cars seem to have been built up on "13xxx" replacement shells and are shown with that number.)

the rally cars all seem to have their chassis numbers listed and, apart from the 1970 ones, none are extreme low numbers. Therefore it would be safe to assume that in most cases they came off the production line at an early stage and then were transformed.

at least one of the low number 1970 cars (9110300002) is well known and there are no indications (that I have seen) that it has any special numbers apart from the recorded chassis numbers

also given these cars mainly needed to pass homologation and scrutineering at events it is hard to see how a strange chassis number could have slipped through and not be known about.

[HughH]

Thanks Bob

that is about as i thought it. It is interesting to fill in the gaps with people's first hand memories though

[hoffman912]

Harry

Here is the thread i had on the demister panels used in early cars.They can be purchased on rally websites or sometimes on ebay.Also,shows the interior of i believe the 66 monte car.

raj

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...Demister-panel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1980230...n/photostream/

thanks Raj,

My friend has one on his mini rally car, but he didnt install it, someone who had it before hand did. I have looked around a bit but have not been able to find one. if you can pm me any leads on where to go or what to search for that would be greatly appreciated.

[HughH]

Hugh


I have been thinking about this,do you have any thoughts on the 911/30 engine specification across different models and different engine type(serial numbers),homologation and the 68 sports manual.I am a little confused.If i remember correctly the sports manual and parts list suggested certain items could not be used on the 911,911S as in the T or the L.I don't remember exactly but does it all ad up.

raj

Raj
I am not sure if i am completely off-base here but i think Bryce was correct with his post on page one of this thread. The table shows engine type "911/30" for both the 1968 2.0 911S rally and the 1969 2.0 911S rally.

I think they are both typos in the book and should be "901/30".

For a start I don't think 911/xx engine types came in until the 1970 MY. However that still leaves your real question about the engine type number being the same over different models and years etc.

My understanding that this is possible as I thought the 901/30 designation was the factory fitting of the "competition or sports kit 1" (and possibly sports kit 2) that could be fitted on an 2000S engine for group 3 (911T / 911S) and the 2000R engine for group 2 (911 / 911L) - the "Rally" engine. This included all the good bits that had been homologated for the group 2 "rally" engine and took the power up to a claimed 170hp as shown in the table and maybe the bits that were not legal for road use without a special permit (sports kit 2) which supposedly added another 5hp.

However i have also seen it referred to as just the 150hp rally kit for the 911L.

Looking at where it is mentioned, on the 1967 911S 2.0 Rally, as well as the two mentioned above, it is entirely reasonable to argue that the engine spec / type remained essentially the same over the 3 years - despite quite different engine number sequences. My reading of the table suggests that is a correct assumption.

Also mention has been made in the past of just 28 901/30 engines being made in the 38800xx series in 1968, but IF the designation only meant the full rallye and sport kit were fitted I cant see why factory engines in the 960xxx range in 1967 and the 408xxxx range in 1968 and possibly 1969 could not have had the same designation or engine type. Obviously the "388" engines were special build ones and identified by their serial number as well as type number.

Frere's book only identifies the 1967 911S 2.0 rally and then the 1970 2.2 Rally. This suggests that the 1968 and 1969 "Rally" cars were essentially the same as the 1967 ones apart from obvious bodywork changes and serial number. However he does not show the 901/30 designation as a "racing" engine in his tables, perhaps providing support to my view that it may only signify the addiotion of the "sports kit" which he details in the general text, and says could have been fitted to all cars in the range.

Perhaps someone on the board with a more detailed knowledge of these competition engines could enlighten us on this.

[HughH]

Raj

i agree about it being confusing.....and wonder if that is an accident or deliberate.

I think option 9552 and 9553 are mentioned in the sports purpose book though and i have seen reference to 901/30 in another publication from then which i cant find at present.

this is what i have against those option numbers

9552 For 911 L only Group 2 homologation package, Recaro
seats, stabiliser bars, Koni shocks, 2000R 901/30 engine
(150 hp), light flywheel and racing clutch, Dunlop
SP tires, 911 S combination gauge, light weight bumper
and rubber mats replacing carpet.

9553 For 911T only Group 3 homologation package, Recaro
(choice of bucket or competition seat), no underside
sealing, light weight sound proofing, light weight front
bumper, bumper trim and over rider deleted, simplified
interior trim including light weight door panels, back
seats removed along with, ashtray, cigar lighter, interior
lights and sun visors, leather steering wheel, halogen headlights,
2000S 901/02 engine (160 hp), lightweight flywheel
and racing clutch, reinforced engine mountings,
911S combination gauge, competition kit 1 (+10 hp), 5
speed gearbox, stabilisers front and rear, Koni shocks, ventilated
discs front and rear, Dunlop SP tires, lowered chassis,
unpolished Fuchs wheels


So the 9552 seems to reference 901/30 2000R engine as a group 2 homologation package but the 9553 group 3 homologation package shows a 901/02 2000S engine type.


that is fine for the 911L Trans am cars and the 911L rally cars that Thomas has provided so much information on, but as we know the cars in the table are neither - they are 67, 68 and 69 S's with S chassis numbers and apparently S engine numbers and it does not explain why they should be called 901/30 rather than 901/02

i suppose ONE explanation could be that the numbers there for 68 and 69 were not just a simple typo of 911 instead of 901 but completely wrong (but the 1967 cars still don't fit in under this explanation as they would need 388 engines and they have 960 and 961 engines according to the table.)

[beh911]

Hugh,

Had to bump your excellent thread here with this picture off of DDK. Rare glimpse of the elusive 69 Acropolis cars

Large higher res can be found here:
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/vie...211&start=9405