Werks 911 Rally cars 1965 - 1972

[67er911S]

great thread, thank you.

[Fred]

Hi,
my name is Fred and i'm new to this forum. I'm from Stuttgart, longterm-member of the "slowly sideways" group (http://www.slowlysideways.com/) and actually try to investigate more details about the 1967/68 Porsche 911 works rally entries (Elford, Waldegaard, Toivonen, Zasada etc.).

So, of course i came across this forum and first thing to do is to praise this definitely helpful and interesting thread.

After owning and running several early Porsche rally cars over the past 25 years, for my next project i chose to recreate one of the Elford 1967/68 Monte cars (preferrably 1968) in the best possible way in terms of originality - that's in few words the motive behind this attempt and any information is welcome.

I.e. does anyone know the correct VIN of Elford's 1968 Monte-winning car (S-C 9166) which seems to be a key to any proper information ?

What was the colour ? I guess it was Polo-Rot or Blutorange as i'm quite sure they used something from the standard colour range. In MY 1967 only Polo-Rot (polored) was standard - this seems correct for the 1967 car S-YS 847. From MY 1969 Polo-Rot was skipped as a standard option and only Blutorange (Tangerine 6809) was available - correct for the 69 works rally cars S-L 2263 ff. In MY 1968 both shades of bright red were listed as standard colours. But unfortunately all old colour-pics from S-C 9166 that i've seen so far (including old originals) have somehow faded and make it really difficult to tell.

I also asked some friend working at Porsche Museum. As it seems they are willing to help but even Porsche people at Zuffenhausen have to know the VIN (already wondered that they obviously don't know it themselves) as a link to the production sheet in order to find out the correct colour code.

Anybody out there who can help with this ?

Thanks+Regards
Fred

[beh911]

Hi Fred,
Welcome.

The 68 Monte cars were Polo Red. So were the 69 Monte cars. 69 was a transition year for factory competition 911 car color, as the 69 factory Acropolis cars were Tangerine/blutorange, as well as the 84 Hours of the 'ring cars.

The Elford car VIN was either: 11820433, 472, 702, or 765, according to the link below. Someone may have narrowed it down further elsewhere on this site.

It was one of the five werks rally cars (see first page of this thread).
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...l=1#post556889

[HughH]

Hi Fred, and welcome.

I think (an educated guess) that S C 9166 was 118 2 0472 and was 6809 Blutorange. I say educated guess because I have seen some Kardexes for some of the cars around that time and there were a couple with "WE" as the handler (ie factory cars) and the first owner being "PRESSE" . I believe the werks cars were owned that way but so were the cars in the press fleet. 0472 is one of those cars along with 118 2 0433, but that was hellelfenb 6804 which makes it a possibility to be S C 9167, the Zasada car.

There were other cars around that time that had both WE and PRESSE on the Kardex. However both of these two cars mentioned above ALSO had other wording on the warranty part saying something like the engine has "increased power" and there is "no warranty" on it, with these entries dated early January 1968. I cant see any other reason for such things to be on the warranty card if these cars were not the werks team cars.

The Toivonen car 118 2 0455 was definitely polorot 6802.

If you have museum contacts maybe this will help give a lead to find out for sure. Let us know how you get on.

[72targa]

Cool site, Fred!

Any more info on this?...

http://www.slowlysideways.com/en/rallye-cars?id=118&p=1

[beh911]

I normally defer to Hugh on anything historically arcane on these cars but there is a faithful reproduction of S C 9166 out there. The car is clearly Polo Red.

I saw/sat in it at Amelia 2012. The owners did some painstaking research on this car in their project, so I am thinking they were sure of the color.

Fred, maybe you want to reach out to them and explain what you are trying to do. They could help with all sorts of details I imagine.

[StephenAcworth]

Concours info states "finished with ruby red Deletion paint, clear coated"... is that the same as Porsche Polo Red? Just asking for clarification...

I normally defer to Hugh on anything historically arcane on these cars but there is a faithful reproduction of S C 9166 out there. The car is clearly Polo Red.

I saw/sat in it at Amelia 2012. The owners did some painstaking research on this car in their project, so I am thinking they were sure of the color.

Fred, maybe you want to reach out to them and explain what you are trying to do. They could help with all sorts of details I imagine.

[beh911]

Concours info states "finished with ruby red Deletion paint, clear coated"... is that the same as Porsche Polo Red? Just asking for clarification...

It's not the same and I should have read the placard in my own pic before posting. I've heard from a few more authoritative than me (not difficult btw ) saying Tangerine was more likely the color.

Does beg the question why the clone is done in red and the incorrect red for the model year.

[Fred]

Hi there, thanks to all for your instant replies.

Well, to begin with the Safari car, the one from the link (No. 41 / S-AR 7909) and also it's sister car (No. 19 / S-AR 7910) are both owned by my garage mate Uwe. They are the real thing, both being originals and Uwe restored them to virtually every detail to their specs from the East African Safary Rallye 1974 (Kühne & Nagel). The same cars had already been used the year before in the 1973 issue of EASR carrying yellow Bosch livery. Drivers in 1973+74 were Waldegaard, Herrmann, Zasada. After restorations were finished in 2005 and 2012 Björn drove his ex-cars many times in slowly sideways events over here in Germany (i.e. Eifel Rallye Festival) before his sudden death in summer 2014. Some weeks ago one of Uwe's cars (No. 19) had been to this big Porsche meeting in Monterey and it still is in the States being on display in the Kühne & Nagel U.S. Headquarter (don't remember where this is, have to ask Uwe).

Concerning the replica car from Amelia island (i had seen some pics in the web before). Well it's definitely a very nice car - no question. I love the old reg.-plates which definitely look like the originals, though this registration is with me - actually on my trailer and waiting to be switched over to the proper car once it'll be finished. But i think that several details are wrong (green gauges from MY67, twin spark ignition, early door handles, later Recaro sport seats, etc.). Ruby-red (as written) however seems definitely not correct to me, though the shade of red on the car looks much brighter - more like polo-red. But as the possible VIN's (1180...) of Vic's car indicate a MY68 911T, ruby-red (it's a darker shade of red deriving from the late 356 period and used only on earlier 911s) should be wrong.

I agree that Toivonen's 68 Monte car (No 116 with the oval export plates) seems to be polo-red. And on most period photos, by comparing, Vic's car looks just the shade brighter which points to Blutorange. To my opinion it can be limited to polored (6802) or tangerine (6809). As Hugh suggests that eventually S-C 9166 was 118 2 0472 and was 6809 Blutorange i will leave this VIN (and the other 3) with the Museum people and wait what they can report. And there is another clue pointing to Blutorange: i have a copy of "Auto Motor und Sport" magazine issue from March 1968 when they test-drove S-C 9166 on roads in and around Stuttgart. It's all black/white pics in the article but in the text they mention the colour as Blutorange. But i want to find as much evidence as possible in advance to avoid finding out later that my car got the the wrong colour - i would hate it.

Will keep you informed about all progress and kindly invite any further opinions on this matter.

Regards
Fred

[indienestmonnom]

Apparently ... So here we probably are, with the 118 2 0472 !